DIALOGUE WITH A MUSLIM
van Chapman
Philosophic community Project
www.naturestudio.net
Part of a long dialogue (at least since 2003 ) between van Chapman (Geraldine) and a Muslim I will call Erci.
COMMENTARY BASED ON THE HISTORY OF THIS DIALOGUE,
most of which was previously published on this web site.
WHO IS THROWING PEARLS TO THE SWINES
exchange
Mohammed could kill people who criticized him.
told to stone people to death when they broke his rules.
To the EGO, as to your belief, you cannot be a friend of someone and see their faults.
To the EGO, as to your Prophet, (see the example of Gaddafi) you cannot be a friend of someone who sees your faults.
You have to destroy them. Your tradition says
"Slay the enemy where you find him" (Surah 9.92).
I say: destroy the evil in people through awareness.
I do not defend the Western nor the Eastern World. I am a friend of both when I see their faults.
It is obvious to me and to anyone that 'keeping appearances' the way you do even on behalf of a prophet,
or even God, is not want to face what is.
Violence is the way of brutality.
Truly civilized and intelligent solutions for relationships break that cycle of violence.
Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. And that is good.
*********************************
NOTE: NEVER MIND THE SPELLING MISTAKES
LAST EXCHANGE
MARCH 2011
DIALOGUE WITH A FANATIC MUSLIM
G Sent 13 Feb 2011
Subject: did you forget our appoitment today
Been making food for you, Ergan.
Did you forget our appointment today?
G
**
Erci Sent: February 14, 2011
Subject: RE: did you forget our appointment today
dear Geraldine,Something important happend.
I tried to call you but your phone was always close.
Can you give me a number where i can reach you? Sorry
Rg.
***
G:- February 15, 2011
Subject: our appoitment
You may come next sunday at 2 pm if it suits you.
Hope I am really dear to you.
I trust you in the house and with my telephone.
20 Feb 2011 17:23:20 +0100
I asked you not come without an appointment.
Now you do not come when you make an appointment.
***
Erci sent February 20, 2011
Subject: RE: our appoitment
Geraldine, I totally forget it, what ever you say you are wright.
I want to apolegize for it.
Excuse me, i didnt check my agenda what about next week sunday?
***
.
G answers: 21 Feb 2011
Subject: Re: our appoitment- Philosophy in practice
Thanks for the honesty, Erci.
That is all that I need in our spiritual or philosophical relationship. I forgive you.
A love-based justice lawyer-judge promotes rehabilitation of people, not their destruction.
Promotes the awakening of consciousness of love and human rights,
rather than justification of with irrational murderous revenge slavery over people through marriage or belief .
C'est clair et simple!
If you want to be a lawyer in Europe, which shall you chose to follow?
The way of love-justice and rehabilitation in confession,
or the way of 'human property through belief or marriage'
and 'death penalty even in confession' power-loving Justice, of Mohammed's belief ?
You can say what you want, Erci, but according to the history of Muhammad's in hadith verbal accounts,
your prophet ordered people who confessed, to be stoned alive to death
(when breaking his obstinate 'property marriage'rules, though he could posses sexually many women, even married ones,
( if he killed the husband), and justify it). see the history below.
'It was standard practice, and made legal by Muhammad, to take as a "wife" in addition to captives, the wives of men killed in battle (or executed). On one occasion when Muhammad launched an attack on a Jewish tribe he personally witnessed their beheading and then took some of their widows to bed.' Semitic scholar and historian A.B. Davidson (a professor at New College, Edinburgh) recorded one such instance: "On one day he caused 800 Jews to be beheaded in cold blood, himself standing by and watching the butchery; and in the evening, to efface the unpleasant impression from his mind, and give a more happy turn to his ideas, he took home the wife of one of the murdered chiefs, and added her to his harem."Source: A.B. Davidson, Biblical and Literary Essays, ed. J.A. Peterson (London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1902), p. 228.'
' Bukhari 7:63:196 Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.Sahih Bukhari 7:63:196'
..........................................................................................................................................................................................
'A Muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad does so with the approval of Muhammad.'
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-jerry-falwell-mohammed.html
A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself
believed he was under demonic influence, but it notes that Muhammad's wife is the one who deemed his experience as "divine,".' Quotes from:
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-jerry-falwell-mohammed.html
.....................................................................................................................................................................................
Commentary by van Chapman :
We read the News. Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. Muslim suicide bombers
not only kills themselves but innocent people indiscriminately.
Is the work of true faith or pure irrational hate or despair?
We read in the News: 'Churches and civil authorities hold accountable clergy members guilty of sexual abuse'.
However, Muslim traditions justify the abuses paedophilia and the possession of children as wives
because Mohammed justified it to himself to marry a nine year old girl.
The Holy spirit would not have justified neither Moses nor Mohammed in violent bloody Jihad
they committed against those who did not believe them.
Anyone who commits acts of violence against others even in religious or territorial disputes,
does so without the approval of the Holy Spirit:
'Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you'. 'My kingdom is not of this world',
so why violate people and kill for terrestrial possessions?.
The Taliban will rather despise the evolution brought by Christ's forgiveness of sin to go back to the primitive
and barbarian anti human punishments of the Torah or the Sharia law.
Concerning terrorism and Islamic jihad, when the Sharia law promotes murder and torture as punishment,
torture, sword or fire or with simply spiritual irrationality and unquestionability, it is barbaric and inhuman violence.
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-jerry-falwell-mohammed.html
.***
Erci Sent February 27, 2011
Subject: RE: our appoitment- Philosophy in practice.
Dear Geraldine,
its to small i cant read it. can you write it bigger.
Thank you
***
From: Erci Saturday, March 05, 2011
our appointment- Philosophy in practice.
Dear Geraldine, Can you give me the refference of that saying.
I mean who said that the Profeth Muhammed pbuh said that.
I need the reference, i cant discuss with you if its bases on thump sucking.
Otherwise it would be strong man argumentation.
You build something that there isin't, and you want me reply on that.
So what is the reference, in wich book is it written and wich diciple of the profphet pbuh has said it.
Thank you
***
G answers:
Thank you, Erci, for not responding with indignation, justifications and offence on
behalf of your prophet but in wanting to investigate the truth.
I am proud of you, even if for this alone.
Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
“No one is allowed to wed more than four women, but he is permitted however,
in addition to them, to buy (women), as many as he wants.”
Here you will find some of the historical scandales of Mohammed estimated by scholars and the refferences:
Here are som quotes from that:
HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT MUHAMMAD
* Mohammed is estimated by scholars to have had somewhere
between 15-25 wives. All agree that he had 9 wives at the time of his death
(5 more than the Quran permits for other Muslims)!
* He died at age 63 in the home of Aisha, his favorite wife,
and was buried on the spot where he died in Medina.
* Earlier, he fell in love with Zeinab, his cousin, and wife
of his adopted son Zeid. He then received a "revelation" from Allah that it
was permissible to marry the wife of an adopted son. Zeid divorced Zeinab
so that Mohammed could marry her.
Sources: Ernest Kellett, A Short History of Religions. New York: Books for
Libraries Press, 1971, P. 343, and Washington Irving, Life of Mahomet. New
York: Dutton & Sons, 1911, p. 231.
* On his deathbed, Mohammed said: "Do not fear those who
disbelieve, fear me" and called for the conquest of Christianity.
Source, Essad Bey, Mohammed. New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 1936, p.
330.------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriage to Six-Year Old
In 624 Abu Bakr (Muhammad’s daily companion and one of his first believers
and successor of Muhammad) gave Muhammad his daughter Aisha when she was six years old,
although the actual marriage was not consummated until she was nine.
This fact is uncontested by all Muslim scholars and chroniclers without exception).
At the time of their marriage Muhammad was 54 years old (the age of her grandfather)
– a difference of 45 years in their ages.
Aisha herself testified to these facts: “The messenger of God betrothed me
when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.”
Source: Sahih Muslim (by Imam al-Mawawy), vol. 3, p. 577.
Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:
“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission,
for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha,
when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”
Source: Ibn Hazam (acknowledged by all Muslims as one of the greatest scholars on Islamic Law)
in his al-Muhalla (“The Sweetened”). Vol. 6, part 9, pp. 458-460.
Abd El Schafi, author of Behind the Veil stated in response:
“These are cruel, hard words and iniquitous Islamic principles which the free human conscience
utterly rejects and detests because it is related to the most important subject in the girl’s life,
that is, her body and her future” (p. 83).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
“No one is allowed to wed more than four women, but he is permitted however,
in addition to them, to buy (women), as many as he wants.”
Source: Ibn Hazam, vol. 6, part 9, pp. 441, 467.
However, exceptions were made for the Prophet and his successors:
Muhammad had 11 wives and an Egyptian concubine
Umar Ibn al-Khattab had 7 wives plus 2 maid-salves
Uthman Ibn Affan had 8 wives
Ali Ibn Abi Talib (cousin of Muhammad) married 10 women plus 10 concubines and maid-slaves for a total of 29
Al-Hasan Ibn Ali (grandson of Muhammad and called by the Prophet
“the master of the youth of Paradise”) married 70 women (and was said to sometimes divorce two women in a day!).
Sources: Biographies such as Ibn Kathir’s, Bidaya and the Nihaya, vol. 7 & 8, and Suyuti’s, Chonicles of the Caliphs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriage to wives of men killed by Muslims, including the murder of Jews
It was standard practice, and made legal by Muhammad, to take as a “wife” in addition to captives,
the wives of men killed in battle (or executed). On one occasion when Muhammad launched an attack
on a Jewish tribe he personally witnessed their beheading and then took some of their widows to bed.
Semitic scholar and historian A.B. Davidson (a professor at New College, Edinburgh) recorded one such instance:
“On one day he caused 800 Jews to be beheaded in cold blood, himself standing by
and watching the butchery; and in the evening, to efface the unpleasant impression from his mind,
and give a more happy turn to his ideas, he took home the wife of one of the murdered chiefs, and added her to his harem.”
Source: A.B. Davidson, Biblical and Literary Essays, ed. J.A. Peterson
(London: Hodder & Stroughton, 1902), p. 228.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sexual License in Islam – The Temporary Contractual Marriage
According to all Muslim scholars (especially in Sahih Muslim) the temporary, contractual marriage
was made lawful by Muhammad simply to satisfy the sexual passions of his soldiers. The “marriage”
only had to last 3 days, after which the woman could be deserted and left without any rights.
Only the fact that it is temporary a “marriage” separates it from outright fornication and adultery
(forbidden in Islam), but there is practically no difference. It was practiced during the beginning of the Islamic
era (during the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Ibn Abu ‘Umar) and is continued in practice today by over 100 million Shi’ite Muslims worldwide.
Concerning this .practice the following Islamic authority states:
“While in the army, Allah’s Apostle came to us and said, ‘You have been allowed to have Muta (“pleasure”),
so do it.’ If a man and a woman agree to marry temporarily, their marriage should last for three nights …”
Source: Sahih al-Bukbari, part 7, p. 37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***
Erci Sent: March 05, 2011
Subject: RE: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Dear Geraldine,
I have checked some of youre sources but they aren't correct.
I have at home all the collection of Buhari and the reference you give me is not there.
you also give me some reference of a certan person, but thats not a reference.
So i need to conclude that its like i was suggesting a stro man argumentation.
You build something that is not there and you want me to respond on it.
I cant do that Geraldine.
So if you want to have an intellectual discussion, pls make youre sure youre sources are correct.
For example, if i refer to a verse in the bible, i tlle the book and the verse.
But youre sources are incorrect.
Im sorry but all this is based on false argumentation wich i cant respond on.
Have a nice day.
***
G answers 6 Mar 2011
Subject: Fw: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Really Erci?
May I know the links on the web for the history of Mohammed according to you?
WORLD News.
LIBYA and the historic nonsense of tyranny.
Why do the Libyans make War in place of voting?
Where unquestionable authority and unquestionable submission is part of a culture,
where critic opposition is punished with violence, with Jihad,
in place of resolved through civilized dialogue and voting,
the logical consequence in opposition is fear in submission or bloodshed in war.
Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. And that is good.
***
Erci Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011
Subject: RE: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Dear Geraldine,
You need to understand the history,
The tyranny leaders youre talking about are but by the USA and the West.
Thank to God know the muslims are using there mind.
All the Middle east will change, the Khalifaat will return, The Profet Muhammed pbuh has profeciced this all.
So for us this is not new,
We know the Coming of Crist, The Anti crist, etc..
I cant write this all on mail but the Muhammed that you know is not the Profet Muhammed pbuh
***
G answers 7 March
Which History is true according to you?? The sunni or the shiia hadiths? Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah,
Ibn Sa'd, Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Abu-Dawud?
You said it is not right what I found about Mohammed.
quote: Dear Geraldine, I have checked some of youre sources but they aren't correct.(...)
I have at home all the collection of Buhari and the reference you give me is not there.End quote.
The Massacre of civilians Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 358: Narrated Jubair bin Mut'im: ...
'Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: ...When the first civil strife (in Islam) took place because of the murder of 'Uthman,
it left none of the Badr warriors alive. When the second civil strife, that is the battle of Al-Harra,
took place, it left none of the Hudaibiya treaty companions alive.
Then the third civil strife took place and it did not subside till it had exhausted all the strength of the people.'
Erci I, I neither defend the West nor the Eastern World In the way you blindly defend Muslims, your prophet and the Islam.
I am a friend of both when I see their faults.
It is obvious to me and to anyone who is true that 'keeping appearances' the way you do on behalf of oneself, of another,
of your prophet, of the Muslim world or whoever is not to want to face what is.
To the EGO, as to your Prophet, you cannot be a friend of someone who sees your faults.
You have to destroy them. Your tradition says "Slay the enemy where you find him" (Surah 9.92).
I say: destroy the evil in people through awareness.
Violence is the way of brutality.
SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOU BUT SEE THIS in your credible BUKHARI COLLECTION:
Don't tell me now it is not true about a slave Safiya bint Huyai.
First he (your prophet in a war) kills her people, imprisons her then he makes her a 'free' woman marrying her!!!
What are the high standards for himself and his men??
Bukhari Sahih Bukhari 1:8:367
Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz: Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.
' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles!
You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.
' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya,
'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."
In theses Bukhari collections of yours I found translated in English, someone tells that your Prophet
ordered the "two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers
used to be placed near the Mosque. "and he "saw her companion
(i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones." http://chittarkottai.com/bukhari/search.php.
Understanding this story spiritually for men means when
'the adulterer was bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones',
he was proving his love for the woman.
Where is the love of Mohammed in this story?
Jesus has said is a similar situation: ' He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone' (John 7:53-8:11).
Justice, from the point of view of love, means that Mohammed would be going to hell for his arrogant,
unforgiving and cruel pretence, and the adulterer to heaven, for their love.
Because love is the only true light giving force, the only spiritual unifying,
the true justice and peace giving force, the only true heaven.
Mohammed found that to have as many women as pleased concubines or wives marriage such as buying or taking a woman as a slave, was OK.
But Mohammed presumed himself the authority to judge and condemn others to death for breaking a marriage contract.
Here you can read that Bukhari
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:367 Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311:
Narrated Aisha:
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say,
"Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone
(the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will;
and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51)
I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
Bukhari :Volume 7 :: Book 62 :: Hadith 6. Narrated Anas:
"The Prophet used to visit all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives."
....................................................................................................................................................................
Erci, you said that the people in Mecca accepted Mohammed with open arms.
Look what your book says: . http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/spread.htm
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360:
Narrated Ibn Shihab: These were the battles of Allah's Apostle (which he fought), and while mentioning (the Badr battle) he said,
"While the corpses of the pagans were being thrown into the well, Allah's Apostle said (to them),
'Have you found what your Lord promised true?" 'Abdullah said, "Some of the Prophet's companions said,
"O Allah's Apostle! You are addressing dead people.' Allah's Apostle replied, 'You do not hear what I am saying, better than they.
' The total number of Muslim fighters from Quraish who fought in the battle of Badr and were given their share of the booty,
were 81 men." Az-Zubair said, "When their shares were distributed, their number was 101 men. But Allah knows it better."
WHAT AN ARROGANCE! Allah knows it better? What do you do when you throw a corpse in a well? You poison all the drinking water for everyone.
You probably see the TV world News. Why is there is no dialogue with the opposition, but repression in the rule of Gaddafi?
Why do the Libyans make War in place of openly dialoguing?
Why is it that in their speeches, both Gaddafi as the rebels against him say they are martyrs and send each other to hell?
'The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet becomes a Kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed'. http://knowing-islamic-doctrines.blogspot.com/2010/12/islamic-blasphemy-law-as-explained-by.html
This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi 'Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others.
(Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/spread.htm
This is what they are taught by Mohammed to admire, this is what the Islamic tradition thought them:
not to listen to critic opposition but, because they really do not have an argument, to kill the ones who oppose or criticizes them.
One can solve problems through love and intelligence, as we try to solve in our dialogue...
If you put aside your keeping appearances on behalf of your prophet.
Where unquestionable authority and unquestionable submission is part of a culture, as in Libya.
When protest arises, the first option, as with Gadaffi, is not dialogue, but brutal repression and war.
Have you noticed that Gaddafi paid people to kill demonstrators, and decided to give about around 300 euros
to each one of the population after the International community condemned his attack on his own people??
Where did he learn this?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/spread.htm
quote: Warfare was not always the best option for Muhammad.
As he gained wealth he also used money and gifts to spread Islam. End quote.
The Prophet said, "I give them so as to attract their hearts (to Islam)." (Bukhari: vol. 4, bk. 55, no. 558, Khan)
Bukhari :Narrated Anas: The Prophet gathered some people of Ansar and said,
"The People of Quraish are still close to their Pre-lslamic period of ignorance and have suffered a lot,
and I want to help them and attract their hearts (by giving them the war booty). ... (Bukhari: vol. 5, bk. 59, no. 623, Khan).
Narrated Abu Said: Ali sent a piece of gold to the Prophet who distributed it among four persons(...)
The Prophet said, "I give them so as to attract their hearts (to Islam)." (Bukhari: vol. 4, bk. 55, no. 558, Khan) Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 357:
Narrated Qais: The Badr warriors were given five thousand (Dirhams) each, yearly.
'Umar said, "I will surely give them more than what I will give to others."
**************************************************************************************************************
I do not defend the Western nor the Eastern World.
I am a friend of both when I see their faults.
To the EGO, as to your belief, you cannot be a friend of someone and see the faults.
Mohammed could kill people who criticized him.
told to stone people to death when they broke his rules.
It is obvious to me and to anyone that 'keeping appearances' the way you do even on behalf of a prophet,
or even God, is not want to face what is.
Truly civilized and intelligent solutions for relationships break that cycle of violence.
Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. And that is good.
van Chapman
***************************************************************************************************
Dear Erci, Do you really not understand me (are you thumb sucking)
or simply avoiding to understand me, just keeping appearances on behalf of your belief,
because you could be killed according to your belief if you saw something not right in it?
You ask me to explain again.
I only defend what I see coherent with love, not with any religion in particular
So I am not justifying Christianity nor the Islam but I find absurd that you make a blind eye to all that is not good
in your prophet, in the Islam and even in the Muslim world.
All the fault is with the 'West' or 'America', you say.
Do you not ever see the news?
see Abdul Rahman faced death penalty in Afghanistan for converting from Islam to Christianity http://news.uk.msn.com/forum/thread.aspx?board=00000071-0328-0000-0000-000000000000&thread=eeddf632-191a-4abb-ad51-aa3a5dd60757
'how can a religion of peace kill in name of religion?'
You force me again and again to explain what I wrote before.
PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND ONCE AND FOR ALL this: Sincere dialogue is superior to a Belief
which will kill others in name of religion for example the Islam what you will deny according to the book you have at home.
Unquestionable authority and unquestionable obedience even in a crime is the beginning (Abraham)
and is the end of this thought-created Monotheism.
Self destructive phenomena of traditions people have called Monotheistic doctrines where Shiites, Sunnites, Catholiques
Jews Protestants, Muslims are ego tripping and killing each other over religion
instead of coming around the table and finding what is really essential in life:
to stop the stupid competition for power and war and collaborate so that we can be sincere and true and fair,
understanding and loving to each other rather than hate, enslave, dominate or kill each other.
.
You said I have to know the history.
And you said you have at home all the collection of Buhari and the reference I give you is not there.
I found the book and the references in several Muslim sites on internet, which I sent to you by e mail,
and you say again that the references are not right.
So the only solution for the world to know the real history of Mohammed is to go to your house personally
and check in your personal copy of the book.(!!?)
Maybe you really cannot understand English, but I think you do, and because you believe in a religion that kills
those who go back on it, you are afraid to understand and be true and instead continue ego tripping.
***
Erci Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Geraldine,
How come you never answer my questions and why dont you put my questions in our dialogue.
Youre dialoge is False, not everything i said you have put there.
fe; the Amazing Qoraan etc..
I told you that youre references are not correct.
If your cant understand that, thats youre problem.
So answer now my question:
Is killing an innocent man for the sins of mankind, is that Love?
Is murdering Love Geraldine?????????,
Is it to difficult to answer that Dear Filosofer??
G answered march 8 2011
Erci, Is that what you call a strong man's argument?
You dismiss all I am saying by writing that what I find in the Koran and in the Bukhari is not correct
according to YOUR PARTICULAR BOOK.
Tell me where I can find your book on the web so I can have access to it.
Tell me which sequence is not a right reference.
You asked: "If God is Love, How come He killed his Innocent Son, according to what the Christians say ?"
You said: " if i refer to a verse in the bible, i tlle the book and the verse". Where is the reference then?
Our dialogue takes much more time from me than from you.
Go through it on the web and you will see how much more careful and extensively I write than you.
Yesterday I spent all afternoon answering you. And you did not get it.
Read again:
(Unquestionable authority and unquestionable obedience even in a crime is the beginning
(Abraham) and the end of Monotheistic religions ....)
Where did you get the idea that I agree with killing an innocent son as Muslims and Christians believe in the story of Abraham?
When did I ever say that God killed the innocent Jesus?
I never said that.Is that what you call a strong man's argument? Show me the reference.
Christians do not say God killed Jesus but sent Jesus who was betrayed by Judas and killed by the men of Cesar.
Symbolically Jesus accepted to be sacrificed as a sheep to God, a martyr, as your religion would call it.
Anyhow it is more loving to die in a mission to save humanity than to kill humanity or those who protest,
example on the streets of Libya, in defence of oneself, as we see Gaddafi is doing and I see Mohammed
did in his time according to the references I gave before( and you deny).
I cite Jesus when I agree or not with something he says, when he makes sense or not to me, as I do with you,
with your prophet or with the word of God of any book. I reason from the love of my heart alone.
I am not a follower. Is that too strange for you to understand ?
I am showing you what is incoherent about what is actually happening in the history of Mohammed,
in the history of the Islam in the present Muslim world and you deny to admit there is anything
at all and the whole fault is with the West or America.
Even the war between Shiite and Sunni Muslims ? Is that what you think is a strong man's argument?
That is indeed KEEPING APPERANCES.
You are very demanding. I have to put all we write to each other on the web when you like.
I have to think of the public also. It is too much to put on the first index page, for most people
will not have the patience to read all we say to each other.
I am busy collecting our e mails per date and publishing them in sequence on the page I made especially for it.
And we will be able to see our own incoherences, if any, when we re-read it, so as to clear everything up.
I hope you want to clear everything, what I call a strong argumentation, instead of justifying all on your side
like a lawyer who is paid to defend someone even when he is wrong.
Be well.
G
****
van Chapman
Philosophic Community Projects
www.naturestudio.net
G answered:
Dear Erci now I have a Nederland's Index page on our website with of the last things I wrote. Myriam has translated it for me.
If I always say the same thing, in a way, again and again, is in the hope that this time around you and other religious fanatics will get it.
ABRAHAMM's Story:
THE BEGINNING AND THE END OF BLIND OBEDIENCE EVEN IN A CRIME.
If anyone first orders you not to hate and not to kill, and then, (instead of promoting healthy understanding through questioning
what is and what is not just), commands you to hate and make war against and kill unbelievers, is this not a contradiction?
Abraham was tested for obedience by having been asked to murder his own son, then, a sheep instead,
a story celebrated by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike: the beginning of monotheism.
This particular story means the beginning of the blind faith and blind following even in a crime.
As I have explained in the 'vegetarian meditation on the Islam', why MUST we kill a sheep to eat if one can live as a vegetarian?
Why MUST we obey whoever or whatever without questioning?
Why should one follow orders from anyone which we find are not just, even if we are threatened do be murdered if we don't?
The same blind following and blind faith even in a crime will be also the end of the Monotheism,
because blindly following the same tradition, irrationally, for the slightest difference of meaning or interpretation,
murderous opposition and bloody war is created and not the questioning dialogue which could be enlightening
and peace bringing. Do we follow someone blindly to be in peace with one's consciousness or because this someone threatens us?
If we can be free to question anyone authority with the sincerely of our heart's consciousness, why should we follow
blindly someone who contradicts himself? Because we are threatened?
Killing in the name of God is this tyrant-like irrational attitude is no more than
the product of servitude to thought, as my dear J. Krishnamurti would say.
Product of human pretence and irrational, unwise and uncompassionate human pretence.
In looking for the divine love and justice, one must rise upon fear and stop being a slave to forces of darkness and terror.
The law of an eye for an eye is barbaric.
If there is a spiritual justice, it is not that we must blind someone who has made another blind,
simply that someone who did so intentionally was spiritually blind.
The truth is not we need not rettribute a crime with another crime since every crime has in itself its (spiritual) retribution.
The awareness of this spiritual blindness is its only cure.
Spiritual awareness is the only cure for the harm caused by hate, fanaticism, blind irrational beliefs.
Then we will be truly free to separate the corn from the shaft, free, without servitude to what is said
or written anywhere and we may distinguish the treasures of love's wisdom from the unworthy servitude
or vain love for power anywhere, even Sacred books.
A love-based justice lawyer-judge promotes rehabilitation of people, not their destruction.
Promotes the awakening of consciousness of love and human rights,
rather than justification of with irrational murderous revenge slavery over people through marriage or belief .
C'est clair et simple!
****************************************************************************
IN THE MEANWHILE I MEET ERCI ON THE STREET AND HE BORROWS ME HIS TRUSTED VERSION OF THE HISTORY OF MOHAMMED.
****************************************************************************
G Answers: 18 March 2011
Erci, thank you for borrowing me the ONLY history of Mohammed you trust.
CONGRATULATIONS ERCI, only by you can I find the true story of your prophet. (!!!?)
Today it is nowhere on the STANDARD WEB to find !
GOOGLE answered: 'Our search - Marifet Yusuf Ozasian Our only leader the Prophet - did not match any documents'
The book you borrowed me, title: 'Our only leader the Prophet' written by Yusuf Ozasian
and published by Marifet in 29 march 1993, thus very recently.
(Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:12 PM YOU ASKED ME:quote):
'make youre sure youre sources are correct.
For example, if i refer to a verse in the bible, i tlle the book and the verse'(end quote).
THAT IS A STRONG MAN'S ARGUMENTATION ACCORDING TO YOU. Now look at it:
THE ONLY BOOK YOU TRUST ABOUT THE HISTORY OF MOHAMMED HAS NO REFERENCES...
(to the Koran or Hadith Books from which the author took the story).!!!
SO, IF YOU ARE COHERENT WITH WHAT YOU WROTE ME BEFORE:
WHO IS NOT HAVING STRONG ARGUMENTATIONS?
WHOSE IS THE FALSE ARGUMENTATION?
WHO IS REALLY MISLEADING HERE?
...........................................................................................................................................
Reference:Erci Sent: , March 05, 2011
Subject: RE: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Dear Geraldine, a reference.
So i need to conclude that its like i was suggesting a stro man argumentation.
You build something that is not there and you want me to respond on it.
I cant do that Geraldine.
So if you want to have an intellectual discussion, pls make youre sure youre sources are correct.
For example, if i refer to a verse in the bible, i tlle the book and the verse.
But youre sources are incorrect.
Im sorry but all this is based on false argumentation wich i cant respond on.
Have a nice day.
;................................................................................................................................................
***
G. answers: 19 Mar 2011 01:11:22 +0100
Subject: Re: Polygamy, Concubines, and Mistresses in Islam
Dear Erci, you wrote me that if I do not give the sources that is
not a strong man's argument.
The only book you trust has no sources at all, therefore, to use
your language and reasoning, it is just for thumb-sucking.
Why are you saying that if I want the sources, I have to come to
your house?
Why are you not more open about the names of sources?
Why are you so reluctant to give me the exact historical authors,
the links to the international knowledge sources of Mohammed's
history ?
I tell you why:
Because you try to dominate over me at all costs though you will
never succeed.
Why? Because you believe all is justified in self defence, and you are
self-defending your belief in a way which is incompatible with a
truth-loyal dialogue. In a way which is childish and unphilosophical.
Because you are trying wanting to polish the history of your
Prophet, to keep appearances and hide and deny all that is
brutal, barbaric, and incoherent in your Prophet, and his belief,
even if I make it evident to you every time again.
Krishnamurti's once asked:- 'How can a mind full of beliefs see clearly?'
Your friend in love of truth.
***
Erci Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: The Last And Final Messenger : Muhammed (PBUH).
Dear Geraldine,
Again you get it wrong.
The Koran tells me that you can do self defence but beging patient is better.
Secondly the Koran teaches us that if you kill one man, its like you killed mankind.
Is this Terror, is ths Barbaric, is this Brutal.
I told you Geraldine, if you want to go deeper you need to talk to professors in Islamic universities.
You are full of hate and prejudices against the Most Noble man
in History Muhammed (PBUH) that you cant say nothing good
about Him. I Mean ok, if you want to hate Him, Be my gast,
But what do you want from me, Im telling you honestly, youre waisting youre time, evryone who
stood up against Islam has waisted her or his time and finally has lost. Cause Islam is not mine, its From God,
You have problems with it take God to the court. You claim to believe in love wright?
Can you tell me whone good thing that you know about The Profeth Muhammed PBUH.
Or are you full of hate ?????
***
G Answers
To rather murder for a belief than to allow the questioning which leads to truth,
IS MY NOTION OF SATAN, UTTER STUPIDITY, NOT OF GOD.
One reads the translation of Qur'an 2:216 'Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.' -
4:76 'Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who -reject faith fight in the cause of evil. '
I say do not what you hate.
If you fight as a philosopher for dialogue and understanding, as Socrates did, believing that each person has
the consciousness in him, you do not fear to die,
you fear to kill for a belief that contradicts itself by ordering you to kill for a belief,
for God instead of promoting intelligent questioning and dialogue which leads to the truth.
On the street, when I met you and joked with you that you were
looking like an American, you mentioned the MIDDLE WAY.
You know in your heart Erci, that I never looked at you with
hate, though we seriously disagreed .
Sincerely, G.
Philosophic community Projects
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net
YOU CALL HATE A QUESTIONING BASED ON THE FAITH ON SINCERITY AND PARDON THROUGH THE
AWAKENING OF UNDERSTANDING, WHILE YOU DEFEND A LAW OF AN EYE FOR AN EYE REVENGE of
your Prophet and HIS word of God.
Commentary on that:
According to the historic narrations you and many 'your'
professors hide from us, Mohammed did not tolerate critic on
himself, as (logically not) the Koran, his version of God's Word,
'no other than its religion will be tolerated', and to fight until
no other religion is than the Islam.
So do not come to tell me that it is the West's fault if Muslims rather use terrorism
to dominate opposition rather than civilized questioning and dialogue.
They are just obedient to a pattern of unquestioning obedience (even in a crime) for example:
The condemnation of Reason, Disbelief or Questioning,YOUR Prophet's belief)
is real prejudice and hate: 2:193 "Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no
dissension, and the religion is for Allah."Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.
Surah 4:89 -"Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn
back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever
you find them..."
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are
friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is
one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more
persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
2:216 Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
- 4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who
-reject faith fight in the cause of evil.
***
G Answered 19 March
Subject: The Last And Final Messenger : Muhammed (PBUH).
- DO YOU NOT SEE HOW CRUCKED YOUR REASONING?
DISBELIEF AND QUESTIONING (as mine of the brutal sides
of your belief) IS NOT HATE BUT REASON BASED ON THE HEART..
God is love, He wants us to love one another. such as in 'Love your neighbor as yourself. :(Mark 12:31')
Satan wants us to kill each other. (Best Answer/Asker http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?
qid=20100421071922AAaoUyf). Such as in Surah 4:89 -"Those who reject Islam must be killed.
If they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them..."
***
Philosophic community Projects
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net
From both sides in the revolutions in the Arab lands as between
Shia and Sunni, they shout 'Allah is the Greatest' and they
murder each other believing themselves to be heroes and sending
each other to Hell (!!! )
They believe in Your Prophet's barbaric methods of religious conquest,
(like Gaddafi THE SELF GLORIFIED in Libya),
not in dialogue and questioning as the Western Democratic culture does.
(Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. And that is good).
Philosophic community Projects
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net
***
Erci sent 20/03/2011
Question from the Muslim Erci:
-Well how do you explain then that God has created Hell, you can read it in Matthieuw.
If he is love then why did he create Hell ???
20/03/2011 Question from the Muslim Erci:
-Well how do you explain then that God has created Hell, you can read it in Matthieuw.
If he is love then why did he create Hell ???
Answer Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:38 PM
Subject: The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love itself.
When you are a child you believe Santa Claus is a person who really exists somewhere.
When you grow you understand he just symbolizes a spirit, who brings us light and blessings, gifts.
Is love a person or that which makes us truly a person?
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love itself.
True love is our spiritual paradise and our selfishness is our spiritual hell.
False thoughts create the greed, vanity, jealousy, hate, and crime,
which are our spiritual hell, so long the illusion persists, not in the hereafter, but here and now,
for who has eyes to see.
We create our spiritual heaven or hell for ourselves.
There is no one else to send you to a spiritual paradise or to hell.
Buddha saw that greed created of suffering.
(greed the illusion of selfishness, separation, falseness, pride, hate).
Buddha saw that clarity, compassion, thus, the light of love, is the way out.
Jesus, on the cross, realized Buddha's vision that evil is caused by illusion, when he asked God,
(Luke 23:34)' Forgive them, because they do not know what they were doing").
God who should have known best, but did not know best,
because the revengeful god men created was also a product of their own revenge and hate.
Jesus realized then, at least, that the way was not brutality and hate but understanding and light.
Therefore 'love your enemies', and not as Mohammed believed:
'Kill unbelievers wherever you find them' or
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Qur'an (8:12)
which in the name of the MOST MERCIFUL
(in whatever context you want to place) is total spiritual madness...
Those who believed in this God, who should have known better but did not,
until Jesus opened his eyes, think like this: The greatest sinners, through the intercession of Jesus,
may obtain pardon. God heard him, and still hears him "always".
For me this is all a thought process, that has its based on old beliefs,
trying to justify old beliefs at any cost.
But wisdom comes directly from consciousness and the heart,
not from justification or condemnation based on belief.
Justification or condemnation based on belief is the cause
of the most absurd and unsolvable conflicts today,
of the madness of suicide or mass murder terrorists,
and we have a chance to decide to leave it all behind us,
or go on with the nonsense indefinitely.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love itself.
Is love a person or that which makes us to be truly a person?
Love is that without which we are lost, and with which we find ourselves.
The rest are just beliefs...
You may wonder how can I speak in such a free way you cannot:
'The truth will set you free'
Your friend in love of truth.
***
Erci Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love itself.
Dear Geraldine,
Can you answer now my question and stop writing blubber.
You claime that God is Love, in Mattheuw God says that he will punish them in Hell.
So im asking you, if he is Love then why is he going to punish them in Hell and why did He Create Hell and not only paradise.
And now pls answer the question and not turning around the table.
Thank you
***
G. answered 21 Mar 2011
Subject: Re: The Holy Spirit is the spirit of love itself.
I have already answered.
Go back to it with an open mind or with a teacher from your school.
Write me when you get it. G.
***
Erci Sent 22, 2011
Subject: RE: JESUS SAID, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME...
The bible says that the hell was designed originally for Satan and his Demons.
So im asking you Geraldine, Who has designed it Beside God????
Youre talking about Jesus and love, did you forget that Jesus said, Slay them Before me ?????
SLAY THEM BEFORE ME, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME,,,
So it seem that youre God of Love has olsa a punishment side ????
And it seems that youre filosofie is callapst.
So dont bother me anymore with your bulshit Love story !!!!!!!!!!!!
So maybe you can come To Islam, and find the Truth cause the Truth will set you free.
Like Jesus said, Follow the spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth, he wont speak from hisself but what he hear that shall he say.
John, 16:12-14
Jesus was Talkinga bout the profeth Muhammed PBUH.
Here you have some references what you God of love says about the Hell Fire, there are more but i think this is enough.
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).
(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.
" Matthew 13:50 "furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth"
" Mark 9:48 "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched"
" Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.
" Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
" Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"
" Revelation 20:15 "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire"
***
G answers: Subject: Fw: JESUS SAID, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME...
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:12:55 +0100
There is no difference between Mohammed's Koran telling you to kill Muslims who renegade the Islam,
and Mafia gangs telling you, once you have been a member, that they will kill you if you renegade their brutal gang...
in both cases there is brutal tyranny and that is not love.
I believe in what makes sense, no matter who said it, You like all believers believe in someone even if that one make no sense,
And in that way you do not differ from many Jews and Christians your Koran tells you not to be a friend of.
And most believers believe even in that what makes no sense out of fear of others or death or hell.
(In your book of the history of Mohammed the author pretends Mohammed will tell you what is the word of God and what not.
what is good and what is bad. To me this is bad: If a God makes no sense in rather punishing his creatures for all eternity than
to give them insight and wisdom, it is the creation of man's unforgiving irrational hate.)
I believe in what makes sense, and it can be Jesus or your Mohammed, but do not tell me I have to believe it because it is written
or because Jesus or Mohammed has said it, because I will not believe point other line.
Sorry Erci, but So long as you or another comes to me with your fanaticism or irrational belief, they will hear me speak of reason and love.
Have a good day.
G
Erci sent March 22, 2011
Subject: RE: JESUS SAID, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME...
Geraldine,
Im not coming to you, its you who are coming to me.
Im happy in my religion, its you who have problems with the islam.
i told you many times, i dont believe that God is Love and still you want to convince me.
So you have youre religion i have mine.
Its as simple as that.
Let this be my last answer of our conversation.
End of story.
***
G Answers: Tue, 22 Mar 2011
Subject: Fw: JESUS SAID, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME...
Do not lie Erci- you have come to me as I came to you, as a friend.
You trying to dominate me and convince me that the Islam is superior to every other religion or ideology,
even to reason and love, and I proving to you with clear evidence of its contradictions that this it is pure pretence.
If you want to end the story here then I must thank you for taking the challenge. for whether you realize it or not,
you helped me to prove my point in this discussion: Love or Belief?
Thank you also, in name of the evolution humanity, in name of the freedom of consciousness.
From your friend in love of truth.
***
Erci Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011
Subject: RE: JESUS SAID, SLAY THEM BEFORE ME...
Ok Let it end here,
But i want to add to this conversation that i didnt took the time and research to answer you.
So my answers could be not complete.
But anyway its was also very intresting.
May Allah guide us all closer to the Truth.
By
***
G. Answers Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011
Subject: The truth about the Islam: You may see any wrong in it or you are a dead man!
Thank you for the 'interesting'.
I am not sure it is the end of the story. You will always want to add something.
Not only you have not taken time to research , you have actually not had time to understand -
only to defend yourself at all costs, deny all evidence I showed you was not nice about the Islam,
therefore you have not been really honest. Neither to yourself nor to me.
That is obvious in our dialogue, and that is why you helped me to prove my point,
and why our dialogue can be very boring without a synthesis made of it one day.
But I cannot blame you alone:
This is the truth about your prophet and his belief the Islam:
4:89 -"Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them
wherever you find them..."
You cannot be yourself, you cannot be true in a confrontation with love and reason.
You cannot see anything wrong in your belief or you (fear you are) a dead man!
From your friend in love of truth.
***
Erci Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011
Subject: RE: The truth about the Islam:
Peace
***
G answers. 22 Mar 2011
Subject: Re: The truth about the Islam: You may NOT see any wrong in it or you are a dead man!
You may NOT see any wrong in it or you are a dead man!
***
Erci Sent: March 23, 2011
Subject: PEACE
PEACE
***
G.answers Subject: Fw: PEACE
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011
"Those who reject (HIM, Gadaffi) must be killed.
If they turn back (From HIM, Gaddafi ), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them..."
Not love from his people but a violent rape.
a wolf disguised as a sheep.
One difference of interpretation, as between
Gadaffi and the protesters, Sunnis and Shiia Muslims,
and instead of dialogue, and voting, both sides believe they are the marthyrs,
and the both sides believe they are justified to send each other (literally) to hell.
4:89 -"Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them
wherever you find them..."
This is your prophet's bloody peace. enjoy it.
***
Erci Sent: March 23, 2011
Subject: RE: PEACE
Peace
G.answers Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 Subject: The end
Peace to one who unlike your prophet, does not kill with stones someone for a betrayal, but forgives.
Because those who will possess another as a slave keeper in truth do not love, but rape.
Peace to the one who, unlike your Prophet, can take critic and protest and unbelief without going to war to kill the other.
because to answer unbelief but with murder and not with reason as Mohammed's version of God does, is the end of love and peace.
Peace unto all who have laid down all arrogant, vain pretence of power, or hypocrite subservience,
because the vain arrogance of men as their ignoble subservience to power leads to lying and endless division, as humble honesty leads to union and truth.
Peace unto your prophet also, when instead of covering up or following his example blindly, you and his followers recognize the faults he made.
Your friend in love of truth.
G
***
Erci Sent: March 24, 2011
Subject: RE: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Dear Geraldine,
It seems you are obsessed with Islam.
That good for you.
Didnt you understand that publishing the same ves over and over again makes a fool of you.
As you said our conversation has ended.
Now leave me in Peace as i leave you in Peace.
Or do you want to stalk me with the same verses over and over again.
Get a hobby i should say.
Now tell me when can you pay me my 200 € back?
***
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011
Subject: Re: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Dear Erci,
Obsessed is someone who cannot question( a belief). To be critical of something is to be free of it.
Answering honestly and not allowing someone to dominate over you out of a belief alone is not the same as stalking .
I repeat myself in our dialogue if you keep denying clear, simple evidence.
Foolishness is denying reason and love denying simple evidence .
Your belief teaches you to think a man to be superior to a woman and a believer superior to a non believer
(a believer of the Islam alone). So you want to have the last word and the upper hand over me.
That is not being honest. That is being a believer.
About your portrait:
You are afraid to have your real name and photo in our conversation on the web. I am not ,
even though your fanatic brothers who have no more intelligent argument could kill me for speaking of reason and love,
and all I could do is prove you wrong (in the eyes of reason and love) in this dialogue, which I have done.
So in our conversation I am not the one who is hiding.
I cannot make a better portrait (than the one I made of you) of someone who is not really true to me.
So I gave you your portrait for free.
You will have to wait for your money back when I have it.
I have to wait until you stop hiding your real name and your real face in our conversation.
I do not know when that will be.
Be well.
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Ok Geraldine,
Let me know when you have the money.
Peace
¨***
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
G.answers
Erci,
You said last you have not done research to answer our dialogue.
You let me do research alone, again and again.
If at least you were to someone who was willing to understand, (not only to convince others),
I had not to repeat myself so many times all these years.so you did not really
read with care and you did not really answer with care our dialogue.
I did most of the work. Even the portrait you asked of yourself.
I did what I could but not what you asked me to do:
tot change your eyes in that portrait.
The change in your eyes (as in my portrait of you), has to come from within you.
Stop hiding your name and your face from our dialogue,
stop fearing if I record on video our conversation while I finish that portrait.
-How can a mind full of fear, full of beliefs see clearly?
Would have asked again Krishnamurti.
Once I wrote in a poem that 'angels have no fear, for they are protected by the love in their hearts'.
Only then I will believe in your peace.
Be well.
***
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Dear Erci,
Obsessed is someone who cannot question( a belief). To be critical of something is to be free of it.
Answering honestly and not allowing someone to dominate over you out of a belief alone is not the same as stalking .
I repeat myself in our dialogue if you keep denying clear, simple evidence.
Foolishness is denying reason and love not denying simple evidence, simple reason and love
Your belief teaches you to think a man to be superior to a woman and a believer superior to a non believer
(a believer of the Islam alone). So you want to have the last word and the upper hand over me.
That is not being honest. That is being a believer.
About your portrait:
You are afraid to have your real name and photo in our conversation on the web. I am not ,
even though your fanatic brothers who have no more intelligent argument could kill me for speaking of reason and love,
and all I could do is prove you wrong (in the eyes of reason and love) in this dialogue, which I have done.
So in our conversation I am not the one who is hiding.
I cannot make a better portrait (than the one I made of you) of someone who is not really true to me. So I gave you your portrait for free.
You will have to wait for your money back when I have it.
I have to wait until you stop hiding your real name and your real face in our conversation.
I do not know when that will be.
Be well.
***
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Dear Geraldine,
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful.
I want to add in our conversation that Miracle that The Holy Qoran is the Word of The All Mighty.
Every reader of this converstation, i would like to invite you to see the miracles of the HoLy Qoran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdAPLRDrIM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiMtKjwda2M&feature=related
I will check youre website, and if i dont find these Links and my Tekst there,
Then you will lose all my respect.
Be honest publish what is said and wrighted not only the things that you would like to publish.
Just the truth and nothing but the Whole Truth.
By
***
Subject: Re: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011
Are you threatening me?
If you accuse me of something you have to explain what you meant,
or no one who reads will respect what you say.
Before I publish anything answer the question.
You said you are studing International law to become a lawyer.
So the law of the Islam Sharia does not concern you?
In what way did I betrayed you? I have no idea.
You said you are studing International law to become a lawyer.
So the law of the Islam Sharia does not concern you?
***
March 26, 2011
Subject: Madam Hate.
Geraldine,
You have betrayed me for not doing my portret afther you have got your money.
The portret is not even looking like me.
Geraldine, you need to understand that islam is a very big religion, you have many subject,
fe: relations with your parents, feeding the poor, how to fast, how to pray, Sharia, Sunnat etc.....
Next time dont come and say i want to talk about the Islam, but say i want to talk about Sharia.
Everything of Islam intrestes me but i didnt had the time to study the Sharia.
Thats why i cant answer youre questions.
You need to go to an professor of Sharia cause youre questions are always the same, its about stoning, and killings etc.
Its also strange that the only thing that comes of a Madam of Love is punishment.
I think you need to look at the mirror, i start to think that you believe in Hate insted of Love.
So from now on im gonna Call you Madam Hate.
The Holy Qoran tells you, if you think its not of Allah, then produce a chapter like it.
So who are you waiting for, Madam Hate?
Be an Honest Woman, Finish my Portret wich you have been paid for !!!!
Or give me my money back.
I tried to help you after you told me you had financial problems, and what did you do?
You are saying you want to finish my portret with conditions.
I didnt asked conditions when i payed you.
What you are doing is very fals and cowerdly.
I think im getting to know you Madam HATE.
***
G Answered:
Thanks for the answer. Now I can publish your previous e mail.
You were happy the first time you saw your portrait.
And you paid it. Then you demanded I change the eyes.
Then I found out that you paid in the condition that I paint you the way you want me to see you.
Not the way I see you.
So I rather give you your money back
but you have to wait. I don't know when I will have money.
You tried a dialogue with me to make me see Mohammed- Koran-Allah the way you see them,
not to allow me to show you the faults I see in them.
You are not content with how I see them.
I proposed we look openly at the references to irrational horrible things in of the Koran, in the Hadiths and even in your Bukhari*.
But you try to justify them or hide them from me,
( re-read our dialogue from the beginning if you will deny that),
you try to give the excuse that the references are not correct, (according to the only history of Mohammed without references you gave me)
or that you have not made research, and do not know about the Sharia etc.
And when I do the research for you, you deny their existence, you send me to talk to others, because you may not reason for yourself..
You are not content with how I see you.
So I propose we speak openly (before a video camera),
while I work on your portrait.
But you want to hide yourself in this dialogue
where you cannot have the upper hand on me
BECAUSE LOVE IS A MUCH STRONGER ARGUMENT
THAN TO DEFEND THE UNQUESTIONABILITY OF Mohammed's ALLAH.
*Death Punishment for Apostasy,
QUOTE: The grim reality for a modern Muslim regarding apostasy is that its death penalty is
rooted in the Qur'an and in the Hadith. I have shown that this is the case in this article.
Such a punishment for a behavior that is not a crime at all, but a right that any human
being of our time should enjoy, cannot be a morally justified punishment.
One should be
able to change religious beliefs if one wants to without the threat of being killed. (End quote).
FaithFreedom.org "Apostasy in Islam" (114 KB)
***
Dear Muslim
I do not defend the Western nor the Eastern World.
I am a friend of both when I see their faults.
To the EGO, as to your belief, you cannot be a friend of someone and see the faults.
Mohammed could kill people who criticized him.
told to stone people to death when they broke his rules.
It is obvious to me and to anyone that 'keeping appearances' the way you do even on behalf of a prophet, or even God, is not want to face what is.
Truly civilized and intelligent solutions for relationships break that cycle of violence.
Arabs are questioning tyranny worldwide. And that is good.
LATEST EXCHANGE
DIALOGUE WITH A MUSLIM
LOVE OR BELIEF?
31 March 2011
NEVER MIND THE SPELLING -ENGLISH FAULTS!
So you wanted to end the discussion with "To you be your religion, and to me my
religion" (109:6).
That was before Mohammed came to power. Afterwards, it was (and this is not the Sharia but the Koran, my dear Muslim):
(Quote):'Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them...(4:89) " ?
In whatever way you turn it, your prophet's religion did not trust an immanent justice like Hindu's or Buddhist's Karma law, but actually tried to created murderers out of Muslims themselves.
:'Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them...(4:89) ".
If you shoot dead someone for deserting a religion you are not using violence in self defence only, but actively forcing people to convert (even the peace loving like the Hindus or Buddhists and the vegetarians and the philosophers and the human rights defenders and the whole world) to a sheep slaughtering, bloody brutal religion through fear, not differently from any criminal Nazi, tyrant, mafia gang.
Can you explain why the 'Madame hate' when I simply reject your insincerity before the stupid violence your religion preaches in name of the MOST MERCIFUL???
Answer honestly, would you follow your heart or will you justify a religion that teaches 'Those who reject Islam must be killed' ?
If you justify it, what is the context that can justify this contradiction in a religion?
More important than the portrait is the sincerity in this dialogue.
Your eyes in the portrait cannot be good so long as you are avoiding the point
avoiding the question, so long you avoid to be truly open and sincere in this dialogue.
G.
quote: When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he
called for tolerance. He said "To you be your religion, and to me my
religion" (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance (end quote).
ABRAHAM AND THE ANGEL
In the history of Abraham, God told him to kill his son,
but an angel told him not to kill his son.
To kill a sheep instead, (if needed, love would add).
If you can live well as a vegetarian,
then not even killing a sheep is needed.
It was better Abraham followed the angel,
than his unreasonable idea of God.
Philosophic Community Projects
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net
4 April
Erci called me and he was friendly, and I was friendly to him.
He had an idea, he would show me some photos he had taken with dark glasses.
I told him I wanted to paint him without any dark glasses.
He said that apart from something in the nose and around the eyes the portrait was fine.
He complained I put conditions to finish it.
Once again I explained what was not acceptable to me in the Koran as in any religion:
As Mohammed taught, if you abandon a Faith, its members could murder you, like the mafia does.
(like if a woman betrays a man with another, (and he thinks can have several women), he can stone her to death.?..).
He tried to explain but I felt it coming, the 'rond the pot draaien' and I was short with him.
I told him to write me if he wanted to answer me.
He said he had no time!
He lies..he simply has no argument.
He has lost the argument from the start in this discussion,
but he will have time enough to try to fool me around not to openly admit it.
I cannot make a true portrait of someone who is not humble, or I have to paint a mask..
.
PS I MAY NOT PUBLISH HIS PORTRAIT NOR HIS REAL NAME.
Philosophic Community Projects
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net
