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Philosophic Community Project

 

LOVE OR BELIEF ?

 

 

 

Your friend in love of truth.

 

 

 van Chapman
 
www.naturestudio.net

 

 

 

 

LOVE OR ISLAM?


 

 'If the history of Mohammed is true or not, one cannot know,

 but it is violence what transforms an organised religion into an organized crime.'

van Chapman

 

 and a synthesis Integral
Dialogue with Erci
 from 17 Jan 2005 up to 07/January/2008

 

 

 

If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.

 

It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam,

as well as Judaism and Christianity or any religion,  regime, or in fact, any relationship.

 

The power of love is the power of clarity and progress.

The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Philosophic Community Project

 

LOVE OR BELIEF ?

 

 

 

 

Your friend in love of truth.

 

 

 van Chapman
 
www.naturestudio.net

 

 

 

If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.

 

It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam,

as well as Judaism and Christianity or any religion,  regime, or in fact, any relationship.

 

The power of love is the power of clarity and progress.

The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

True angels destroy not men,

but the falseness in them.

 


 

Foreword

 

So much money goes to warfare, to the destruction of human peaceful relations and to the destruction of nature. What can we do to prevent this?

 

The problem of the most brutal war of Bush is acute, of less than one decennia, and in his own name: his war on terror.

But the problem of the Islam, is chronic. It exists already some 1400 years and could be going on forever, the only religion today which justifies lying, deceit ( Al-Takiyya ) and brutal violence and war( the Jihad), in name of God, as means for its domination over the whole Earth.

 

Once I wrote to Bush that the solution for terrorism is a matter of consciousness, and not of violence, and that the best war on terror is to make a good question, to open the minds which have been brain-washed by a terrorist belief.

 

There is no therapy or dialogue for who defends deceit in love,

because those who do this are deceiving themselves.

 

The only therapy is to be sincere in the light of Love.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.naturestudio.net

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first Charter of Human Rights written 2500 years ago

 

‘’I am Kourosh (Cyrus), great king,…Now that I put the crown of the kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of Ahura, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them while I am alive. …I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it, and if any one of them rejects it, I never resolve on war to reign. While I am the king…I will never let anyone oppress others,… I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. While I am alive, I will prevent unpaid, forced labour. Today, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion.…No one could be penalised for his or her relatives' faults…Cyrus the Great" (end quote www.faithfreedom.org)

 


AND now.....

"Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of the birth of Muhammad: 1981


The real Day of God is the day that Amir al mo’menin (1) drew his sword and slaughtered all the khavarej (2) and killed them from the first to the last.
The Days of God are when Allah, the gracious, the almighty, causes an earthquake.It is when He slaps on the face.
It is when he causes a hurricane.
He whips this people to become humans.
If the Amir al mo’menin (1) wanted to be tolerant, he would not have drawn his sword killing 700 people in one go
In our prisons we have more of the same kind of people who are corrupt.
If we do not kill them, each one of them that gets out, will become a murderer!
They don’t become humans.
Why do you Mullahs only go after the ordinances of prayer and fasting?
Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing?
Quran says; kill, imprison!
Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy?
Mercy is against God.
Mehrab (3) means the place of war, the place of fighting.
Out of the mehrabs, wars should proceed,
Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs.
The prophet has [had] sword to kill people..
Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men.
All of them were warriors.
They used to wield swords; they used to kill people.
We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people
In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people.
In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza (4) because they were a bunch of discontent people.
If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice.

The lives of people must be secured through punishment.
Because, the protection of the masses lies beneath these very punitive executions.
With just a few years of imprisonment things don’t get fixed.

You must put aside these childish sentimentalism.
We believe that the accused essentially does not have to be tried. He or she must just be killed.
Only their identity is to be established and then they should be killed."end  quote.
www.faithfreedom.org

 

A reaction on the question:    (quality =diversity ?)

 

Quality = diversity ?

My answer is no. 

Variety alone does not define the quality of art.

 

As quantity does not equal quality, one cannot say

that diversity equals quality even in Art.

 

It is not accurate to say that diversity is equal to

or is a part of quality (in art), because

 first we have to define what we mean by quality (in art).  

 

From a spiritual point of view,

variety in illusion does not make awareness,

variety in crime does not make love,

so variety in art does not make art.

 

Quality in art is not the mere ability to speak

or in how many or how different ways we can say something

but the importance or truth of what one is saying.

 

 

If art be reduced to ability alone it becomes a flaw thing.

not ecologic, like an electric plastic palm tree.

(By the way there is one in front of a 'red light' window

in the prostitution area.)

 

Life on Earth needs more living trees at this moment.

I don’t mind if you put some lights on some of them.

 

Hope I answered your beautiful question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

******************************************************************************

 

I am still working on those texts I gave you, trying to say the same in a better way.

 

I am always saying the same in different ways, like a drill,

because the conditioning of the mind of fanatics is like cement (beton).

 


 

Open letter for world peace

 

How could a father or mother of all humans (who you might call God),

send  his children, brother against brother, to rob land from each other through

torture and killing  like in the sagas of the Old Testament and the history of Mohammed?

 

Any reasonable person can see that to think that  if God exists, God  is not on the side of justice

 and love but  on one's side alone is a tragic comedy.

 

What is the reason of the seemingly endless conflict between Judaism and Islam?

It is that in their holy books, both have the same primitive minded idea that  their

 people are the chosen ones and God himself  would take them towards a military

 victory over their enemies,.

So was the belief in the saga of the first Jews, and so was the belief in the saga of

Mohammed and the first Muslims.

 

A God saying both to Jews and Muslims, who stand in opposition,

that He would help them win victory over their enemy, and sending

them to annihilate each other- until the Day of  Judgement!!!

Only a very narrow mind and vision cannot see the absurdity of this.

 

Who can solve this conflict of the beliefs in God if not even God can,

 because He or the blind belief in Him created it?

 

Only the awareness of love can solve this conflict.

 

Until today the Muslim Sunnis and Muslim Shiites, (as we see daily in the news ),

 both believing in the same Koran, have  fallen victims of this tragic comedy,

They judge themselves to be believers  and the others to be the unbelievers,

and since violence is justified towards the unbeliever somewhere in their holy book,

as a way to solve their philosophical differences, some of them justify

and perpetuate the massacre and genocide.

 

 

 This idea of a God of Compassion helping you in a bloody military victory

is absent to a Buddhist or a true Christian, or a truly spiritual mind.

 

The beasts do that all the time, fight for territory. There is nothing holy in that..

As I wrote before, to me

 there is no holy land won by the supremacy of physical material power;

No Mecca, no Jerusalem.

 

What destroys men and the Bible and the Koran and any religion

 is vanity and love for power.

 

In name of righteousness, in name of God, the unwise, the spiritually blind commit genocides, destroy their own human brothers, perpetuating hate and pain and devastation of war between humans on earth.

 

The victory of truth and justice over falseness is the victory of love,

cooperation and understanding over egoistic irrationality and hateful violence.

 

The victory of truth is won through love and reason alone.

The worse enemy of man is his own proud arrogance and love of power.

It is not through military victory over others but through self awareness

that the victory over ourselves is won.

 

Philosophic Community project   -van Chapman -     www.naturestudio.net

 


PROJECT Philosophic Community


LOVE OR ISLAM?

 

 

 

Extract from a dialogue and E mail correspondence

between van Chapman and a Turkish Muslim

 




 

 

 

You say your Allah is Great,

 but I say true love is Greater

 

 

 

 

 

 


 van Chapman
 www.naturestudio.net


 

 

 

If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.

 

It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam,

as well as Judaism and Christianity or any religion,  regime, or in fact, any relationship.

 

The power of love is the power of clarity and progress.

The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 

 

Letter sent to politicians.

 

(By this I advise a deeper consideration of the implications of recognising Islamic Mosques

in a Democratic world.)

Answer to the ambition of Islam to conquer the world.

 

 

Muslims everywhere ask not to be discriminated,

 ask respect for their belief, for what they understand or do not understand the Islam to be. 

 

But the holy book for the Islam, the Koran, teaches to discriminate people according to their belief,

to divide the world in believers or unbelievers. And that has nothing to do with love.

 

Love is the only unifying power or Re-uniting force,
 or if you want: the only true re-ligare, or religion.
 
In love there is absolutely no discrimination of people for being a believer or an unbeliever.
 
Unbelievers are not only humans but can be even more human than believers.
 What also needs to be understood by believers is that

 not to respect what someone believes, does not mean disrespect for the believer.

 

In the end what matters is the sincerity and the quality of the heart:

someone may have good heart but false beliefs, or otherwise, have good belief but a cruel heart.
 
 

 Is the Islam Law or Barbarism? What is a greater crime, to steal something or to mutilate people?
For a woman to leave her husband for another ,
or to stone someone to death?

 To punish a fault by committing a greater crime, or even an equal crime,

as we can read in the Koran, is not the justice of love and wisdom.

 

 When Mohammed was yet not in power, he said ‘To each one his belief,

‘There is no compulsion in religion’. But when Mohammed came to power, he divided people,

discriminated people for their belief 

 and made his religion compulsory.  (.See Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers

 and Humanists of Muslim Origins, (Google), or  http://www.naturestudio.net/ letter of humanists

 

 Wisdom, true civilisation is not to destroy humans, even if they are considered evil, but to destroy the evil in them. If Allah who was supposed to be omnipotent, to be able to do all things, was not able to create understanding in his unbelievers but   advocated tyranny, slavery, rape and butchery of people, he was the product of barbaric and not of a civilized mind.

In teaching to punish a crime with a much greater crime, in the name of the Most Merciful and wise , Islam is a contradiction.

 It is hypocrisy of a Muslim to say in the Islam one may never fight war against or kill women.

 

According to http://Forums.brisinst.org.au  “(Koranic text straight from Allah gives

Muslim men the right to rape captured females (suras, 70.30, 4.24, 23.1-7, 33.50-52)

 Mohammad allowed his followers to rape women captured in war. No reasonable person would accept that…)”;

  According to some Islamic traditions, a woman may be stoned to death for leaving their husband for another man, while a man may have up to 5 wives and as many as slaves "his right hand possesses” to use sexually at his will (rape).
 
Muslims may rage, but Indeed we can ask , what did Mohammed brought of new, spiritually?
 

 While Jesus changed that trend of stoning women for adultery, by teaching forgiveness,

Mohammed’s Islam brought the revival of the Old Testament’s barbaric “an eye for an eye”, or worse...

 iIf a woman may be stoned for sex with another…


 No one is a mere object or a property of another, in the eyes of the justice of love.

(Sometimes a marriage has nothing to do with love, like in the forced marriages.

Then, to keep a false marriage by force is inhuman.

 
 So there is tyranny even in Jesus or Christianity, if for example, any married person is prohibited to divorce.


In the Islam a man should not humble himself to his women, even when he is wrong?,

 

……… ***Koran 23: 1- 7 Successful indeed are the believers,

Those who humble themselves in their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds of charity;

And who guard their modesty - Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives)

whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

 
Tyrants, as the mafia, want no discussion.
One may be punished or mutilated, beheaded or killed for criticising, for disagreeing with them.

 Mohammed did just that,if the history is true. Aand this has nothing to do with love for humanity.

 

 Wikipedia :  Asma bint Marwan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

search Asmā bint Marwān (Arabic عصماء بنت مروان)


 is a female poet who lived in Hijaz in medieval
Arabia during the life of Muhammad.
  Her affair is first written in Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
  the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.


Another source that described the death of Asma bint Marwan:
 From Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31.
 "SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"


Beating on women for disobeying their husbands, violating women of unbelievers in war time,  
stoning a women for giving herself to another man, killing someone for deserting the belief
 is not self defence but an unthinkable crime of violation of humanity.


If Muslims have to agree with all what is written in the Koran even if it goes against their consciousness, the Islam is a violation of Humanity!

 

When they are not just innocently ignorant, Muslims I met try to deny or hide (Al-Takiyya) from

unbelievers (and from others who they want to seduce to the Islam,) this tyrannical aspect in the Koran.
 
If someone thinks people only respect what they fear, and out of love for power

create an authority or God who ‘will instil terror on the hearts of the unbelievers”,

 who becomes a tyrant and a butcher of people, than he has forgotten that there are free

and true and intelligent people in this world, who do not respect tyranny nor fear brutal force,

 but have respect for the truth, for love and justice alone.

 

 Conclusion:  If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.

It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam, as well as Judaism and Christianity, religion , regime or in that respect, any relationship.

The power of love is the power of clarity and progress.

The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 

May peace be upon us all.

 11 November 2006

 

  See also (Call to the Muslims of the World

 from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins, in Google)


 

To those it may concern.

 

 

This yet unrevised dialogue and E- mail correspondence which lasted about two years, (published in my website), has been an attempt to create an understanding

 between a Muslim-oriented mind and myself, starting from a simple spiritual reasoning of the heart on the true meaning of love, as a philosophical standpoint.

 

If you value any of it, I need help to make a selection of the text revised and eventual translations to publish this in a definitive way in a book form.

 

 

With kind regards,

 

van Chapman

 www.naturestudio.net

 

 


 

 

 

LOVE OR ISLAM?


Integral
Dialogue with Erci
 from 17 Jan 2005 up to 3 February 2007

 
 

 


What I try to say to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
  One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
 nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
  by cutting off his head.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FROM THE NEWS :

In January 2005, After the elections in Iraq, and an attack on a Mosque
of  Shiia Muslims by Sunni Muslims, an Iraqi in tears and despair said:...

_'First we had Saddam, now the Sunnis…when will we ever have peace?'
 and after the massacre in the children school in Beslaan,
 Russia, according to the news papers, another said:

...'It is a fact that not all Muslims are terrorists,
 but it is just as sure, and painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims'
(Sharq al-Awsat)

 



A religion that preaches hate and violence
and converts through violence and blood-shed instead of wisdom,
is like the vampire who sucks your blood and kills your spirit,
to make you a bloody criminal in name of the Holy Spirit.
 And if such a belief says a man is superior to a woman,
one can ask: Superior in what? In murdering? 

 


PROJECT 
Philosophic Community

van Chapman

 

 

Extracts of an attempt of a dialogue in a broken English
with a simpathic Turkish young man in Gent
I will call this young man "Erci" until I have his permission to give
his real name.
*
 Gent ,17 Jan 2005 up to 24 Feb. 2005 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



**************
  


Light and peace to you.



 

 

 

Light and peace to you my friend.
Thank you very much for your kindness if you still answer me my questions.
I promise you not to turn my back on you in this philosophic dialogue.
Wishing you all the best in life.

 


*
G:- QUESTION:
If in the Koran men may have as many partners as they can afford,
as slave or wife, and wives are a man’s sole property,
what is the difference, in the Islam, between being a slave and being a wife?  
Is it true that according to the prophet of the Islam,
men may have as many partners as they can afford, as slave or wife,
and even so may deserve more virgins in paradise
but if a woman falls in love with another man,
and chose to have another man than her husband she is a whore,
to be dishonoured, or assassinated and go to hell?  
Do you agree with this discrimination and violence ?
(Jesus did not agree with.)
 
If a woman studies, she is more knowing than a man who does not,
and if a woman loves, she is more worthy spiritually than a man who does not,
so where is the superiority of having a male sex? Physical strength ?  
And if someone is physically stronger than another,
does this mean a greater intelligence or spiritual value?  
*
 Erci: Hi Marie... Thanks for your questions even that I could read it difficult.
So What is the Qou'Aan is, is The will of God.
 And God is the judge of all judges ;) 
*
G.: -Question: (If you say that a particular book is the word of God),
 do you say that because you have read all and agree in your heart
with all that is written finding all very just,
or because you would agree with anything
just because it is written in a so called Holy book? 
*
Erci: - Yes Maria; Everything in that Book is The Word of God.
So we cant know better than The Creator you See! But its very shame
that you are stuck in some verse and doesn't read the others
and can realise that a human couldn't know this knowledge.
f.e about the Sky, about the baby, about the creation you see.
Now these days the science teach us that those verses
about the sky and all the other ones about the Big Ben and so
 many more are True.
Its a shame that your feelings have taken control over your brain
and can't think clearly.
What Mohammed (pboh) did with Gods help is a miraculous in that context
And look to my respect to other religions I don't tell you answer me
this or that because I'm happy and lucky to live and enjoy Gods love.
 
*
G.: -You did not really answer my question:
 It may seem love to you as a man, to have all the privileges over women,
but that is certainly not true for a woman, to be told she is inferior to a man
just because of her sex.
( according to a documentary about Jewish Justice, I saw on TV),
In the Jewish court, based on the Torah, even if a woman's husband is unjust to her,
 she still depends on his will to divorce.
It is a clear injustice if a woman is to be treated as an inferior
object, a thing, a piece of land, a property of man,
according to this your 'God' of the old testament and the Koran,
and even as an inferior by St. Paul in the New Testament of the Bible.
 
A woman is a person, not a piece of land,
nor a thing to be the property of someone.
 
*
 
Erci :( …-Is there in the world where millions of people can come together
and pray for God. In Mekka  is this is happening
for 15 centuries long and is still growing. The Islam is still growing….)
 -I can tell you go and see what the bible and the Torah is writing
about women and so many more
  
NO I don’t do that I have respect and I'm happy
for what I believe because its the truth
 and only the truth can give us peace in our hearts.
If the Islam was bad and disrespect women
why doesn't the women leave the Islam Ill tell you why::
Because if this hart has taste the truth it can't live without it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!m??
Many European, American women become Muslims you see!!
 
*
G.: - If a woman accepts any belief that preaches discrimination against her,
it is only through ignorance of what is written, or fear.
If a woman accepts any belief that preaches her spiritual
inferiority to men, preaches their slavery to the will of their husbands,
preaches violence against her if she does not obey her husband's will,
it is only through ignorance of what is written,
or pure terrorism: the conversion through the unintelligent argument
of brute force, the stupid 'argument' of 'a knife on the throat'.
 
 *
You might find yourself superior in understanding than I,
because biologically you are a man and I a female.
Then prove it!
 
*  
(quote from a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin, )
“(Our Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he
licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3)
 even if those women are already married.
He himself did just that.
This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they
call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani
soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they
massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed
that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in
Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates
prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.)”
(quote from a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin.)
 
G: Do you believe this is real love?
 
*
Erci :-It doesn't matter how bad they tell about the Islam
the more they do the more they become a better Muslim.
Because you can't make the truth bad that's just impossible.
They have tried that for years and years but Islam was and is still
the most groining religion in The world
1.8 Billon Muslims and over 20 year maybe 2.5 billon Subhanallah.
Its a matter of time that Islam is gona rule all over the Globe.
Because only the Trueth can survive !!!We selam sister Maria . ;)
 
*
G:- The truth is that to be physically stronger, or popular in this world
has nothing to do with the intrinsic value or nobility of something or someone.
The law of the stronger, of the majority, is not the law of wisdom or love... 
The growing popularity of a religion or of anything is not a sign of its Justice.
 Just listen to the great majority of popular radio senders in comparison
to the few truly cultural senders in this World today.
 
 
All the best to you.
 *
 
 
Erci: -I answer your questions but you are always asking the same questions!!!
I don’t think its interesting to answer it anymore because you don't get the answers.
thank you for your Flower!!

I have a question for you who Created Love !!!
 
 *
G: -Dear Erci, have you asked me:
–‘Who created Love?’
 
Maybe a God who says “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”,
as Jesus preached, but certainly not a God who preaches you must kill an unbeliever
of the Islam or of any other religion.
 
But in fact, no one created love, justice.
Love is the uncreated eternal light in Nature.
 
An example:
Read this, my friend:
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion:
is this teaching not contradictory with the next one? 
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past,
then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
 Slay in English means kill, if you did not know.
If this is in the Koran it is obvious that the prophet advised killing ,
not those who were Muslims, but those who did not believed in his words.
Do you not find this a brutal mentality ?
 
*
Killing is not the way to enlighten
or awake the consciousness of someone.
Do you think it is?
 
*
Below are quotes from a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin,
send through by a Buddhist monk:
The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an)
quote: (5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians
for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other.
And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.
Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
 
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion:
 
9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day,
nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God
and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,
(even if they are) of the People of the Book,
until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
 
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past,
then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity,
 then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
G.: Does the Koran advise this? -Erci, do you agree with these lines of the Koran?
Is this from the God you find an example of the great Love?
If you agree with any form of tyranny, then you have no idea what love is.
 
 (a quote from a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin:.)
 
“(Our Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he
licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as
we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did
just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they
call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani
soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they
massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed
that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in
Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates
prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.)”
 
(quote from a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin.)
(Above: a letter of free thinkers of Islamic origin)
 
G: I would like to find out if this is true. Does the Koran advise this?
Is this barbarism what you would call 'converting' to the Islam?
 *
Erci: HeLLo Maria...
I Agree WITH EVERYTHING THAT STAYS IN THE QORAAN 
THAT'S THE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Allah says us not be friends that Allah knows the Best !!!!!
I have my religion and you have yours we will see on the day of Judgment !!!
Hugsss ... Love Rg
 
*
G: (The question is indeed one of having good judgment.
and we are not wanting to wait until the day of Judgement for this.)
 
Only an idiot cannot see that the only way to end hate and evil
is through understanding and  love, (friendship indeed),
not more hate and evil.
 And you are not an idiot, are you?
*
Erci: -What The Islam says that is True !!!
You accept that or not but it Still stays the True ;) Love Rg ..........
 *
G.: -Dear Erci,
 (You did not write me your name, and my name is not Maria.
Did you really read my e-mails?) 
Peace and light to you.
 
 *
God is Love, so how can you be afraid of God?
One must fear only the consequence of Evil doing.
*
I do not fear to say what I feel,
 as people of your belief may fear,
but I fear to do what Islamic terrorists do not fear to do.
 
And I fear for the soul of the one who,
in name of God, would kill and would teach to kill someone
who says like Christ: “Love your enemies,
pray for those who persecute you.”.
 
*
 
Once, in Gent, I had a friend who was a Catholique.
And because I questioned and threatened certain incoherent aspects of her belief,
in our philosophical dialogues ,
she cut our friendship, giving her back to me.
Should we be afraid to hear the voice of love and reason,
 because of a belief, of fanaticism, my friend?
 
*
Dear Erci, one day you told me that in the Koran it is written
(that God told)
Mohammed had not said something he should have said,
and you agreed  with me that he was not infallible.
How can you blindly consider his teaching
the unquestionable word of God?
 
 
Fanatics of any religion will not see the obvious contradictions
in what they consider the Word of God,
 but if in a holy book there is a contradiction with reason and love,
 it is a proof that it is the work of men, not of God.
*
 
Does the Koran advise this?
quote:"not to make friendship with Jews and Christians"(5:51), "
I would like to find out if this is true.
 
If 'Islam' means Peace,
 it contradicts itself if it preaches non-friendship
 
In the great stride between the existing powers in the world,
'no-dialogue' and no freedom of speech is definitely the worse solution.
 
Closing doors to friendship with those of other ways of thinking,
or making war on those who do not share our belief,
(even if it is written in a holy book)
is the way to promote infinite war,
not understanding and peace.
 
*
And sincerity in a dialogue does not mean
to want the power in our hands, at all costs,
 but to allow the truth, the reason,
the light of love and justice to rule.
*
Dear G : Thank you for your  lovely messages.
 
I hope one day Allah will open your heart too and
you will become a Muslim too. (with Gods willing) Inshallah.
 
 
 You are a very nice person I appreciate that.
You know to that Islam and Muslim can’t be terrorists.
You have to learn about the history and find the truth.
 
 
G: Yes we should investigate together the history
of the life of Mohammed !
 
 
 
 
Erci : I told you that under the Ottoman Authority
that all religion lived in peace for 600 years.
 
The Muslims doesn’t know what religion war is,
its forbidden for us because all those tree monotheistic religions Judaism,
Christianity and the Islam of course are from the Same God.
 
 *
G:- Dear Erci, Thank you for your answer.
 
You did not tell me if you like or not to have your real name
in the (synthesis) of our dialogue on the website...
  
I have included a photo of myself.
do you send me one of you to place it there too?
Just read the Bible and the Koran with open mind,
(not having to justify them to go to paradise after death)
and you will find their incoherencies.
Someone can justify opposite points of view
based on what is written in the holy books
because of their contradictions.
 And because of these, there are so many divergences,
so many forms of religions.
The worse of them, for me,
being just the ones who teach unquestioning obedience
 even in a crime, like the God of Abraham.
That is one of the reasons for the barbarism of the religious wars.
of the bloody violent Jihad as the
Crusades and the Catholic Inquisition.
(Wars justified by the old testament only,
because in the New Testament,
Jesus, unlike Moses and Mohammed, taught
one should love and never kill even our own enemies.
  
Erci:- Look, since the 2nd  world war the US
 has never quitted doing war in different countries!!
 
Please tell me are you blind ,,,??????????
for that, and about the Kruistochten. (Crusades)
 
Go and teach those people what peace is
 I know what it is And the Muslims too.
 
Search some more and not only those verses that you think
are bad that do not love, G, and you know that too.

 
 Erci:-  If you love someone you have to respect what he believes like I do.
 I don’t come with verses of the bible or the Torah and tell you about it.
And you know to how disrespect they are about women!!!
 So you’ll never find peace with making other religions bad.
You come and talk about love but you don’t practise it.
Anyway I wish you good luck too
 
 *
G:-  In my work I defend love, as well as I can.
I am often praising love, not myself, not the God of the Bible,
 of Abraham and Moses, nor the Allah of Mohammed, as you do,
because for me they are not as coherent,
beautiful, just and perfect as love and justice itself.  
I know I am not perfect; I am not defending myself, but if I am sincere,
 I see that the traditional word of God is often contradictory.   
You may find beauty in a fervent, unquestioning believer.
that is why you do not find me loving when I question your belief.
I do not see the same as you do. A fervent believer of one religion
will never want to go deep in a true dialogue if it questions
his or her belief.
 
So there is no solution possible for a conflict between two
or more different beliefs, and the result is conflict without end.
Specially if the punishment for unbelief in a religion is death!
 
*
 Once I wrote a letter to Bush.
I told him that that best war on terrorism is a good question.
(Because fundamentalist terrorists are much more afraid
of questions than of bombs…)
 *
There is beauty in seeing things as they are,
in questioning everything without arrogance,
but with the longing for the Truth...
as in a philosophic friendship...
Relating sincerely to others, also to you,
can help me to become more aware and improve myself,
but the other way around is also true.
You can also learn from me.
 
Nice to talk to you.
 
Light and peace to you my friend.
 
van Chapman
 
*
 
 

DEAR ERCI,
 
 IN RESPONSE to the last,
HERE ARE MY COMMENTS ON THE TEXT YOU SENT ME:
‘Misunderstanding Islam By John Alden Williams
(Commentary by Geraldine van Chapman)

 
 http://www.israelshamir.net/english/islamW.shtml.
“- Muslims, by definition, never will worship 'saints'
 and every thought that Man needs a mediator to 'deal' with Allah
is idiolatry (shirk)(…)”.
G:- IDIOLATRY ! A FINE WORD!) 
- QUESTION: (DOES THE WORD ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION ?)
IF THE ISLAM IS A BELIEF TO SUBMIT TO RULES IN THE KORAN,
 WHETHER YOU KNOW OR NOT HOW TO READ, AGREE OR NOT
WITH THE RULES MOHAMMED SET DOWN AS GOD’S WILL, THEN THE
 ISLAM IS TO WORSHIP MOHAMMED AS
THE UNQUESTIONABLE MEDIATOR BETWEEN MAN AND GOD,
(AND IF HISTORIC EVIDENCE IS TRUE,)
 ONE CANNOT EVEN SAY HE WAS A SAINT.  
… IS THIS NOT IDOLATRY?
 *
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- Muslims often will, also in the vicinity of a grave,
contemplate about the meaning of life and to pray to Allah and to Allah only A prayer
to Allah done byan other Muslim asking the best for an other person is highly rewarded (by Allah).
Asking Allah for His Mercy, for the deceased, for someone else (still alive) and for oneself
is proof of someone strength in his/her faith (imam).The dead, considered 'saints' or otherwise,.
are as stones: their lives in this world (dunja)is finished. There is nothing at all they can do;
even not for themselves. They wait for Judgement Day(…)”.

 


 *
 
G:- IF THE SPIRIT OF LOVE, (GOD),
 IS ALL KNOWING, AND ETERNAL,
THE JUDGEMENT IS NOW, ETERNALLY NOW,
NOT SOMETHING FOR TOMORROW, AFTER DEATH.
 
AND IF WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING
AS THE SPIRIT OF LOVE OR GOD IS ALL KNOWING,,
HOW CAN GOD, THE ALL KNOWING SPIRIT OF LOVE JUDGE US,
IF WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO ?
 
 ALL LOVE  WANTS 
 IS TO AWAKE OUR CONSCIOUSNESS TO ITSELF,
TO LOVE, TO LOVE EACH OTHER,
 TO AWAKE US TO OUR TRUE SELF
ETERNAL IN LOVE.
 
 AND IF THE PERFECT IS THE MAKER OF OUR LIFE
 AND OUR DESTINY,
THE PERFECT IN UNDERSTANDING,
 IN PATIENCE,
WE ARE GIVEN AS MANY CHANCES,
AS MANY LIVES, AS NECESSARY
FOR OUR UNFOLDING IN THE LIGHT.
 
 AND YES, WE DIE, IN A WAY TO THE PAST,
DIE AND ARE REBORN AT EVERY MOMENT
WHEN WE ARE WHOLE.
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
 
 I must be brief, and I want to talk about the most serious religious crisis
 of our time. It is the rift that certain fundamentalists--Christians, Jews and Muslims
—are trying to open between Christianity and Islam, the two largest religions on the planet. (…)”..
 
G:- If THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS INDEED FROM THE KORAN,
THEN IT IS THE GOD OF THE KORAN OF MOHAMMED WHO CREATED THE
DIVISION BETWEEN MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS.
Some Christians might be so compassionate as to dedicate
their entire life to ‘praying and feeding the indigent’,
though their ethics is much higher than that of Mohammed,
not accepting to do to others, even to their
enemies, what they would not have done to themselves
 
Quotations of the Holy Qumran translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
(Source: the Islamic Computing Centre UK) (http://info.uah.edu/msa/quran Yusufali.html)
 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:
They are but friends and protectors to each other.
 And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.
 Verily God guideth not a people unjust.(…)
 
G:-GOD SHOULD GUIDE PEOPLE FROM INJUSTICE
TO JUSTICE.
Do you not see the contradiction and the injustice
of these words you consider the Word of God?.
Though I have never been very good in History,
 Let us be coherent when we speak, even if we speak few words,
 and know just a few facts. 
Contradictions in the Koran: FROM THE WEB SITE ISIS
: het Instituut voor Secularisering van de Islamitische Maatschappij
 info@SecularIslam.org


Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace
 and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is,
 of course, death penalty  

 

Some samples of Quranic contradictions for you Prepared by: Syed Kamran Mirza
No matter which translation of the Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same
 to us and every sentence is self-explanatory. It does not take a rocket scientist to c
omprehend the message Allah wanted to transmit for Arabs. Yet, bigoted Mullahs
 will always blame translators for Quranic contradictions/errors/inconsistencies etc.
 and will try to find lame excuses to cover up Allah’s ignorance.
Comments:
The Holy Quran is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies,
 a lack of chronologies or chapters, grammatical errors etc. One can find hundreds
 of contradictions/errors/inconsistencies in the Holy Quran and the above mentioned
 ayats are just selected samples from the Quran. But still it is a miracle to those
 who are blindfolded bigots. (…)
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- Sadly, some people are seeking to foster hatred
and religious war on both sides. The sort of misinformation that is being
 disseminated among Christians and Jews is quite alarming and distressing.
 Some of it is outright falsehood. For example, one thing you may hear today
is that Muslims do not worship God, they worship something else called Allah.
. But Allah is simply the Arabic word for "God." It is closely related to the word for God,
 Alaha, in Aramaic, the language that Jesus and his disciples spoke, a language still
spoken in a few areas in the Middle East. If you are an Arab Christian,
or Arabic speaking Jew or Muslim, you pray to Allah. To question that is like arguing
that French speakers don't worship God, they worship something else called "Dieu"..
. Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus,
and anyone who opens an English translation of the Qur'an will see that.
(…)”..
 
G:- EVEN IF YOU SAY ALLAH OF THE KORAN IS GOD,
STILL I AM ASKING IF IT IS TRUE LOVE OR NOT
 WHAT YOU WORSHIP AS BEING GOD.
 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
 
HERE IS AN Extract of a letter
of free thinker and humanists of Muslim Origin):
 
"In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give
such freedom to anyone else because it is written: If anyone desires a
religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be
accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those
who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them
on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39) (…)”..
 
 G:- TO ME THIS IS NOT THE WORD OF LOVE:
LOVE'S WAY IS TO ENLIGHTEN THE MIND
NOT TYRANNIZE IT.
 
 
Extract letter of freethinkers and humanists of Muslim Origin):
 (…)”..When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he
called for tolerance. He said "To you be your religion, and to me my
religion" (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the
general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to
speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103)
and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all
changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying
unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable
verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other
verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance
in this well-known verse "Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah."
(The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail
all over the earth.).
 Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious
contradictions?  
 
>…continues “J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
 Jerry Vines, former head of the Southern Baptist Convention,
 has described the beloved Prophet of Islam,
 Muhammad, as a "demon-obsessed paedophile. (…)”..
 
G:-I UNDERSTAND WHY
 Mohammed was called a demon-obsessed paedophile
 -READ THE STORY OF MOHAMMED
IN THE LETTER OF FREE THINKERS:
 
 
 
Extract letter of freethinkers and humanists of Muslim Origin:
 (…)The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing
violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had
signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their
belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as
slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic
hair along with the men.
(Myriam comments : -"Disgusting !
Moses was not any better, he did the same !")
 
continue Extract letter of freethinkers and humanists of Muslim Origin:
Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He
distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping
the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a
 
Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her
father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish
girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her
male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two
scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old
Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history
and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not
unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world
but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and
certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all
creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the
Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them
there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a
lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir,
Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children
'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad
assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated
too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from
her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation "The Life of
Muhammad") page 675, 676).
Myriam comments : -"What a horror story !"
Geraldine : -"In name of Allah the Merciful !"
The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding
merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting
their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also
trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a
prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not
neither massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing
free people to slaves and then trading them.
(Myriam comments:-"This is a very strong statement !
They cannot get around this".)
continues:Extract letter of freethinkers and humanists of Muslim Origin:
With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we
suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the
21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious
leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant
Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by
completely ignoring history (…)”..
 (Extract letter of freethinkers and humanists of Muslim Origin).* 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-(…)" Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham,
 who also gave the invocation at President Bush's inauguration, describes Islam as "a very evil and false religion.
" Jon Hanna, an evangelical minister from Ohio who edits Connection Magazine in that state, also describes Islam as "false."
 He cited the 1st epistle of St John (2: 21):"The one who denies that Jesus is the Christ, he is the liar.
He is the Antichrist." Mr Hanna then concluded: "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion." (…)

G:-: WHY WOULD THE GOD OF THE KORAN 'BE SO ANTICHRISTIAN,
PREJUDICED AGAINST CHRISTIANS, FOR EXAMPLE ?
 
IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT IT IS BECAUSE THIS IDEA OF ENMITY
WITH PEOPLE OF OTHER BELIEFS CAME FROM THE MIND
AND PERSONAL HISTORY OF MOHAMMED,  
NOT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT OF REASON, NOR OF LOVE NOR OF GOD. 
(IF MOHAMMED SAID THIS STUPID THING, IN NAME OF GOD,
HE SAID SOMETHING HE SHOULD CERTAINLY NOT HAVE SAID,
DOING WRONG IN ORDER TO DEFEND HIS AUTHORITY
AND HIS TERRITORY BY ALL MEANS AND AT ALL COSTS,
 
JUSTIFYING ALL WHAT HE DID OR TAUGHT,
 EVEN CRIME AND INJUSTICE…
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
(…) Yet this is a barefaced lie. The Qur'an, or Recitation of the Angel Gabriel
to the Prophet Muhammad, the holy book of Islam, always refers to Jesus as
"the Messiah." Christ’s or Christ is only a Greek translation of the Aramaic and Hebrew word,
 "messiah.." The Qur'an also refers to Jesus as the word of God and, spirit from Him,
born of the sinless virgin Mary, "purified above all women," and it gives more space to Mary
 than the New Testament does. I know a number of Muslims who ask "our Lady Mary"
for her intercession every day. There are several shrines in the Middle East
 where Christians and Muslims honour Mary side by side and ask her to pray for them.
 I have never heard, and never expect to hear, any Muslim insult the name of Jesus.
 It would be a rejection of what Islam has taught them, that he was the promised messiah,
 that he ascended to heaven, and that he will come again before the world ends
 Still another word you often hear is that Islam fosters hatred, violence, and religious warfare.
 I want to spend a bit of time on this, because it is so widespread a misunderstanding.
 Jews are told to take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Christians are told that when smitten,
 they should turn the other cheek although I have met very few of them who actually do that.
  Muslims on the other hand are told in their revelation  to resist oppression, even at
great personal cost, because otherwise one is only assisting the oppressor to oppress,
 and God hates oppressors. (…)
 
G:- ???????
THERE IS NO GREATER OPPRESSOR THAN THE ONE
 SOME PEOPLE CALL GOD,
JUST ASK WOMEN UNDER THE TALIBAN .
(THEY WILL TELL YOU  IF THEY ARE NOT AFRAID TO ANSWER YOU.)
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
(…)"This is basic to Islamic ethics, and we need to understand it.
>A related matter much misunderstood is the doctrine of jihad in Islam.
 
It means "virtuous striving," and that is a matter the Qur'an lays great stress on.
 "Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise without God knowing
 who among you have striven and are patient?" (Qur'an 3: 147) (…)"
 
 
G/- TRUE LOVE IS ALREADY PARADISE,
THE GOOD DEED
 AND IT’S REWARD.
 
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN TOMORROW,
AFTER THIS LIFE, BECAUSE HEAVEN OR HELL
 IN YOUR SOUL IS ALWAYS NOW.
 
WHAT YOU NEED IS TO BE LIVING FROM YOUR SOUL
 TO UNDERSTAND WHAT TAKES YOU TO HEAVEN OR  HELL,
 HERE AND NOW.
 
 
Extract letter of free thinker sand humanists of Muslim Origin).
(..)"He Allah) promises us that in the fight for His cause
whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111).
In Paradise he will "wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones" (56:54),
 and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones
set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly
for what we did (56:19). He also promises "boys like hidden pearls"
(56:24) and "youth never altering in age like scattered pearls" (for
those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has
 
promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men
who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where
we shall find "goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the
pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni" (56:67-71).
 
G/- SOME PEOPLE ARE IN HEAVEN
OR IN HELL
AND ARE NOT AWARE OF IT.
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AWARE, SPIRITUALLY.
BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL BE AFTER THEY DIE,
 BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST!
 
HATE IS HELL,
 LOVE IS HEAVEN.
 
 
Ø J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
Ø (…)" Living a good Muslim life, praying ritually five times a day, keeping
Ø  the hard fast of Ramadan, going on the arduous Pilgrimage to Mecca, (…)"
 
 G :-THAT MEANS EVERY ONE IN THE WORLD MUST GO TO MEKKA AND KILL A SHEEP
 EVEN IF A VEGETARIAN...
OR ELSE HE IS AN APOSTATE, A HERETIC.
MYRIAM COMMENTS:-
"The butcher Jehovah liked the smell of freshly shed blood and burning flesh of slaughter !"
GERALDINE: -"This is only the carnivore instinct not God."
 
1The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 Command the Israelites,
 and say to them: My offering, the food for my offerings by fire, my pleasing odour,
 you shall take care to offer to me at its appointed time. 3 And you shall say to them;
This is the offering by fire that you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs a year old
without blemish, daily, as a regular offering. 4 One lamb you shall offer in the morning,
and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight...
 
 
ST. AUGUSTINE( is believed to have) SAID:
-'LOVE, AND DO WHAT YOU WANT.'
*
 LOVE IS THE ONLY RULE.

 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
(…)" giving generously to the poor, rearing one's offspring in the fear of God, is all of it a jihad.
>"You shall believe in God and in His messenger, and strive with your possessions
 and with your selves. That is better for you, did you but know" (61:11).
 
"O you who have faith, fear God, seek means to come to Him, and strive for His sake
; so may you prosper" (5: 54). (…)"



 
G/- YES WE DO KNOW WHEN WE LIE,
AND WHEN W
E ARE HONEST.
.
AND WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE
WHEN A LEADER'S WORDS AND ACTS
CONTRADICT THEMSELVES.
NOT BE AFRAID TO SEE THE REAL TRUTH
BEYOND BELIEF.
 
SEE THAT IF A DOCTRINE IS CONTRADICTORY,
IT CANNOT BE THE TRUTH.
 *
 
Ø J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
"O you who have faith, fear God, seek means to come to Him,
 and strive for His sake; so may you prosper" (5: 54). (…)"
 
 
G:- DEPENDING WHAT IS YOU CALL GOD.
IT MAY MEAN
‘LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU’ (JESUS)
OR ‘PRAY FOR THE DEATH OF OUR ENEMIES’!
(SHEIK YASIN, MUSLIM 'SPIRITUAL' LEADER MURDERED IN IRAQ).
 
QUOTE FROM Some samples of Quranic contradictions for you
Prepared by: Syed Kamran Mirza
Which one is correct?
· Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….
OR
· Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
· Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye
 find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….
· Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….
· Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out fro
m where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
· Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers.
 IF ALLAH OF THE KORAN IS ALL POWERFUL,
WHY DOES HE NOT GIVE WISDOM TO PEOPLE
INSTEAD OF MAKING WAR AGAINST THEM?
 DOES HE LOVE TORTURE AND BLOOD BATHS?
THEN WHY DOES THE ALLAH OF THE KORAN
NOT DO THE DIRTY JOB BY HIS OWN HANDS? I WILL NOT!

 
69:30 (The stern command will say): "Seize ye him, and bind ye him,
69:31 "And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.
69:32 "Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits!
69:36 "Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds,
 

G:- THE HUMILIATION OF PRISONERS BY SOME IDIOT
AMERICAN SOLDIERS CHOCKED THE GOVERNORS
OF AND THE PEOPLE OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY
AND OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.
HOW MUCH WORSE THE PRISONER'S TREATMENT
ADVISED IN THE KORAN FROM THE ONE THEY
BELIEVE TO BE GOD!!! READ THIS: 
 

5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle,
and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion,
 or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land:
 that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

G:- Love does not ask to be flattered
but to be understood,
Love is patient to explain.
 
Who kills another for not flattering them
are the criminals of the mafia, the bandits of the slums, the corrupt cesars- ,
the arrogant dictators, the false Gods, false prophets.
 
Ø J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
(...) The early Muslims had to strive also in battle
against attacks by their enemies. (…)"
 
G/- THEY DID NOT HAVE TO.
THE GREATER EXAMPLE OF DIVINE RESISTANCE
TO OPPRESSION WAS GIVEN BY MAHATMA GHANDI FROM INDIA.
 
 HE WAS THINKING AND ACTING IN THIS SPIRIT:
 HE WOULD HAVE SAID TO THE ENEMY:
-‘YOU ARE NOT MY LORD SO I WILL NOT OBEY WHAT YOU
ORDER ME TO DO, BUT ALSO I WILL NOT DO
THE VIOLENCE YOU DO.’
AND HE ACHIEVED THE INDEPENDENCE OF INDIA
WITH  ETHICS, NOT WITH BLOOD SHED. 
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)"The Qur'an states the circumstances
 in which and Islamic state ruled by Islamic law, or an imperilled Islamic community,
 may resort to war. These are:
1- When there is a grave and sudden threat to religion. (…)"
 
G/_ TO WHAT HE CALLS RELIGION...
 
(…)"And if God did not repel some people by others, then cloisters, churches,
 synagogues and mosques wherein God's name is much remembered would have been pulled down.
 And surely God will help one who helps Him,
 surely God is strong and mighty 22:40 (…)".
 
 G/- THERE IS THE PRETENCE
THAT OTHERS HAVE TO FOLLOW OUR RELIGION
BY FORCE, NOT BY GOOD ARGUMENTS.
 
AND THIS GOES TOGETHER WITH
CLOSING EARS AND EYES TO GOOD ARGUMENTS.
 
IF IN ONE VERSE YOU SAY DO NOT BE A FRIEND OF CHRISTIANS
AND  ON THE OTHER VERSE YOU SAY OTHERWISE, THAT
CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE PLACE OF ADORATION OF GOD,
THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG IN YOUR  BRAIN …
 
 
Quotations of the Holy Qumran translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
(Source: the Islamic Computing Centre UK)
(http://info.uah.edu/msa/quran Yusufali.html)
 
 
 
 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians
 for your friends and protectors:
They are but friends and protectors to each other.
 And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.
 Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
 Re: friendship, the Quran also says:-
 


"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who
have not made war against you on account of your religion,
and have not driven you forth from your homes,
that you show them kindness and deal with them justly
 surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids
you respecting those who made war upon you on account
of your religion, and drove you forth from your homes
and backed up others in your expulsion, that you make
friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them,
these are the unjust. " 60:8-9


 
By John Alden Williams http://www.israelshamir.net
(…)"2. When Muslims are subjected to oppression.
 "And what reason have you not to fight in the way of God,
and of the weak among the men and women and children who say,
 'Our Lord, take us out of this city, whose people are oppressors.
Grant us from Thee a friend, and grant us from Thee a helper'" (4:75).
 
>3. When Muslims are forced out of their land.
"And fight in the way of God those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities.
 Surely God loves not the aggressors" (2: 190).
"Whoever retaliates with the like of that with which they are afflicted
 and are again oppressed, God will surely help him" (22: 60). (…)"
 
G:- RETALIATION IS THE OLD LAW OF AN EYE FOR AN EYE
'THAT MAKES THE WORLD BLIND.'.
 
 - HERE IT IS CLEAR THAT THE MENTALITY 
OF MOHAMMED 'S GOD DID NOT EVOLVE
FROM THAT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT,
IN TERMS OF LOVING, AS JESUS EVOLVED.
 
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace
 unto it.11. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee,
then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee,
 and they shall serve thee.
12. And if it will make no peace with thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13. And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male
thereof with the edge of the sword: 14. But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle,
and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself;
and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.....
16. But of the cities of these people, which the LOrd thy
God doth gave thee for an inheritances, thou shalt save alive nothing that breathed.
17. But thou shalt utterly destroy them....(etc...)
 
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)"
 "To fight in the Holy Month is a serious matter, but to bar from God's way,
 and the Holy Mosque, and to expel its people,
 is yet more serious in God's sight; the disorder is worse than slaying" (2: 217). (…)"
 
 
G:- “Disorder is worse than killing”,
 HE SAYS. WHOEVER SAYS THIS IS A CRIMINAL.
IF YOUR HAIR IS MESSY, YOU DO NOT CUT OFF YOUR HEAD!
 
ALSO, TO ME THERE IS NO SINGLE HOLY DAY OR MONTH.
ALL PRESENT TIME IS HOLY.
 
 
An Italian poet whose name now escapes me has once said:
‘AND ALL TIME IS LOST’,
‘WHICH IS NOT DEDICATED TO LOVE’.
 
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)"


4. When political entities commit deliberate breaches
of treaties and pacts. "Those with whom you make an agreement,
who then break their agreement every time, and keep not their duty.
 If they break their oaths after their agreements
 and revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief- (…)"
 
 
G/-  HAVING FAITH IN THE SUPERIORITY OF LOVE OVER HATE AND EVIL
IS GOOD, BUT WHAT IS SO GOOD ABOUT BLIND BELIEF?
YOU MIGHT BELIEVE A SNAKE TO BE A FLOWER….
AND KILL SOMEONE FOR SIMPLY SHOWING YOU WHAT IS.
 
BELIEVERS ARE TORTURING AND KILLING EACH OTHER
 SINCE THE BEGINNING OF BLIND OBEDIENCE.
 TRUTH NEEDS NOT TO BE BELIEVED.
TRUTH IS TO BE SEEN, AND YOU CANNOT HELP SOMEONE TO SEE BY CUTTING OFF HIS HEAD.
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)" because surely their oaths mean nothing-so that they may desist" (9: 12).
>Can you understand that in the eyes of many Muslims, Palestinians (for an example) have now been put in that position
 where they must resist?
Suicide is forbidden in Islam, and very rare in Islamic societies, but if one must sacrifice one's life in order to help the
 oppressed(and when one reaches that point is a matter of interpretation),
 most religions consider it a heroic action. (…)"
 
G/- THE MADNESS OF A WORLD
IS NOT TO SOLVE  ITS OPPRESSIONS WITH INTELLIGENCE
BUT WITH MORE VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION.
 
>
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)"
 Muslims are also explicitly instructed in the Qur'an that all acts of war
by them must cease immediately if their enemies sue for peace, (…)"
 
G/-. IF THE ENEMY MUST CONVERT OR BECOME SUBJUGATED.
THIS IS OPPRESSION.'
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net : (…)"- pledge to end persecution and oppression,
and sincerely undertake to abide by their oaths and covenants. "But if they desist, then surely
 God is Forgiving, Merciful" (2: 192). "And if they incline to peace, then incline thou also to it, and trust in God.
 Surely He is All-Hearing, All-Knowing " (8: 61).>The issue of deterrence is also discussed in the Qur'an.
 "And make ready for them whatever force you can, and [have] horses tied at the frontier, to frighten
 thereby the enemy of God, (…)"
 
G/- HERE IT IS PRESUMED THAT THE NON-BELIEVERS OF THE ISLAM ARE BAD,
ENEMIES OF GOD.  HOW CAN THE CHRISTIANS, FOR EXAMPLE,
 IN THE KORAN BE THE ENEMIES OF GOD,   IF THE KORAN TEACHES THAT JESUS
IS INDEED THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH?  THEN IT IS ABSURDLY INCOHERENT.
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net : (…)"- and your enemy, and others beside them,
whom you know not-God knows them" (8-60). Thus Muslims are ordered to be ready for war, 
not in order to start it, but to keep their enemy from disturbing the peace. (…)"
 
G/- THIS EXEMPLIFIES THE CYNICISM OF IMPERIALISTIC RELIGIOUS WARS:
.Numeri 31
LOVE AND WISDOM  DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN CHRISTIANS
AND MUSLIMS, AMERICANS AND IRAQIS, WHITE AND BLACK, MAN AND WOMEN.
 
 TO DEFEND TRUTH YOU DO NOT DO IT WITH KILLING BUT WITH AWAKENING CONSCIOUSNESS.
I WOULD SAY TO MOHAMMED AND TO ANY ONE, -IF YOU WILL KILL, DO IT IN YOUR NAME
OR FOR YOUR COUNTRY,  NOT IN THE NAME OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
WHO HAS NO COUNTRY, AND WHO LIVES IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS AND
HEARTS OF ALL PEOPLE.
.

 
ALMOST EVERY DAY NOW IN THE NEWS,
WE SEE MUSLIMS MASSACRING BROTHER MUSLIMS
BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OR
CONTRADICTIONS OF THE KORAN.
 
IN FACT YOU CREATE TO YOURSELF
THE HELL OR PARADISE YOU CREATE FOR OTHERS.
 
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net : (…)"
 So far as war for the propagation of faith is concerned, such a thing is not
 mentioned even once in the Qur'an.
 
G:- O YES? HOW ABOUT THIS ? :
Extract letter of free thinker sand humanists of Muslim Origin).
(…)"be "harsh with unbelievers"(48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam,
the Prophet announces with a "stern command": "Seize ye him, and bind ye
him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a
chain whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe
in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! (…)"
 
G/-WHAT ABOUT WAR AT THE HOME ADVISED IN THE KORAN?
A WOMAN (SOUAD) WAS BURNED ALIVE FOR DISOBEYING HER FATHER
AND HAVING A CHILD IN A RELATION BEFORE HER ELDEST
SISTER GOT MARRIED.
(SHE SURVIVED TO TELL THE STORY).
 
ARE NOT THE 'HONOUR MURDERS',
PART OF THE ISLAMIC HISTORY
FOR THE DOMINATION OF THE ISLAM?
 
 IF A HUSBAND, FOR EXAMPLE, MAY BEAT HIS WIFE
 IF SHE DOES NOT OBEY HIM, THIS IS OPPRESSIVE
AND DISCRIMINATING,
A VIOLATION IN THE NAME OF THE GOD OF LOVE.
AND YOU KNOW VERY WELL IN YOUR HEART THAT IT IS.
 
 LOVE’S WAY IS TO ENLIGHTEN THE SPIRIT.
 
 
G:- FOR THE POWER OVER ANOTHER IN A RELATIONSHIP, A HOME,
A DISTRICT, A CITY, A COUNTRY, AND IN THE END EVEN THE WORLD,
BLIND BELIEVERS WOULD KILL EACH OTHER,
IN THE NAME OF THE SAME GOD. (-OF LOVE?)
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)"This fact should be
a revelation for those who think that Islam
requires its followers to fight for the spread of their religion.
 
This is something we and our political leaders need to be aware of:
over a billion Muslims believe that they are divinely ordered to
refrain from aggression, and also to resist attacks and oppression. (…)"
 
J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :-
 (…)"Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. (…)"
 
G:- ????????
I DOUBT THIS VERY MUCH, BUT IF THIS IS TRUE
I HOPE IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT
FEAR AND UNQUESTIONING SUBMISSION
 IS WINNING OVER REASON AND LOVE IN THIS WORD.
 
 
Ø J.A.Williams www.israelshamir.net :- (…)" If Muslims continue
 to be misunderstood and slandered,
 they can cause great pain to the world's societies(…)"
 
 
G:- AND IF MUSLIMS CONTINUE
RITUALLY SLAYING THE SPIRIT OF LOVE, THE SHEEP OF GOD,
MISTAKING BLOODY TYRANNY FOR THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH,
MISUNDERSTANDING AND SLANDERING WISE AND LOVING PEOPLE
IF THEY ARE NON ISLAMIC, THE WORLD WILL RETURN
TO THE DARKEST OF AGES.

BUT WHATEVER HAPPENS IN THIS WORLD,
 I TRUST IN THE EVOLUTION OF UNDERSTANDING  
OF THE  INDIVIDUAL SOULS, AND I SEE THE ETERNAL
SUPERIORITY OF LOVE'S JUSTICE ABOVE THE VANITY
AND BRUTALITY OF BRUTE PHYSICAL POWER . 
 
 
From letter of free thinkers and Humanists
(…)"The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and
relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis
(filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight
the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It
says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling
water" (14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands
and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with
disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter"
(…)"2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.
 But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you,
and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.
But God knoweth, and ye know not.


(G._ AND WILL GOD KEEP US STUPID FOREVER?)
47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks;
At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):
 thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will,
He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself);
but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others.

 But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message):
"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers:
I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." (…)"
 
G:- THIS IS NOT SOMETHING TO INSPIRE INTELLIGENT ANGELS ,
BUT STUPID DEVILS. IF ALLAH HAS REALLY TAUGHT THIS,
IT MAKES NO SENSE TO SAY ALLAH IS TRUTH AND LOVE.
BECAUSE REAL LOVE CREATES ORDER IN ANOTHER WAY
THAN THROUGH KILLING,  CUTTING FINGERS OFF PEOPLE AND SUCH HORRORS. 
From letter of free thinkers and Humanists
((…)": 9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day,
nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle,
 nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are) of the People of the Book,
until they pay the Jizya with willing submission,
and feel themselves subdued. (…)"
G:- IF THIS IS NOT VIOLENT IMPOSITION OF A BELIEF
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS!
 

 


11  March 2005 
 
G:- DEAR ERCI, THIS IS A SHORT ONE,
 
 -For a prophet or the followers of this prophet 
to punish an apostate, an unbeliever, with death penalty,
is like cutting someone’s head off, for not understanding what we say..
What is the wisdom, the patience, the compassion,
what is the justice or truth,
what is the intelligence of such belief?
  
THE FIRST CRIME IN THE BIBLE WAS COMMITTED BY A MAN CAIN,
 NOT A WOMAN.
THE FIRST MEN TO CONTRADICT THE COMMAND OF LOVE
WERE THE SAME WHO BROUGHT THE WORDS
'THOU SHALL NOT KILL'.
(MOSES AND MOHAMMED.)
 
IF YOUR HOLY BOOK TEACHES YOU 
TO MAKE WAR AGAINST YOUR OWN BROTHERS
TO KILL THEM , YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF CAIN
NOT THE FOLLOWER OF GOD, OF LOVE. 
 
30 March
 
G:-IT IS FOR THE TRUTH WE ARE DEBATING,
MY FRIEND ERCI,
 HAVE YOU GIVEN UP THE DISCUSSION WITH ME, ?
DO YOU NOT DARE TO SAY THAT MY OBJECTIONS ARE JUSTIFIED? 
AGAIN I ASK YOU,
 
Are these teachings in your Holy book not contradictory ? 
2:256 'Let there be no compulsion in religion:
AND:
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans
wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);
 
G:-   I DISAGREE COMPLETELY WITH YOU,
ERCI, THAT THE KORAN IS THE TRUTH, IF THIS IS WRITTEN IN IT.
 
'Slay' in English means kill, if you did not know. 
If this is in the Koran it is obvious that the prophet advised killing,
not those who were Muslims, but simply those who did not believed in his words.
 Do you not find this a brutal mentality? Killing is not the way to convince, 
convert, enlighten or awake the consciousness of anyone...!
 
FROM THE NEWS :In January 2005, After the elections in Iraq, and an attack
on a Mosque of  Shia Muslims by Sunni Muslims, an Iraqi in tears and despair said:...
_'First we had Saddam, now the Sunnis…when will we ever have peace?'
 and after the massacre in the children school in Beslan, Russia, according to the news papers, another said:

...'It is a fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is just as sure,
and painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims'(Sharq al-Awsat)
************
(The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an)
9:29 'Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden
which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,
(even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
(5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:
They are but friends and protectors to each other.  And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.'
G:- IT IS NOT THE JUST WHO NEED GUIDANCE!
GOD SHOULD INDEED GUIDE THE UNJUST TOWARD JUSTICE,
AND IT IS ABSURD TO PRESUME ANYONE TO BE UNJUST BECAUSE HIS BELIEF TEACHES HE SHOULD LOVE HIS ENEMIES (TEACHING OF CHRIST).
. (...) " Very often apologetics claim that Islam is a religion of peace
 and there is no compulsion. Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is,
of course, death penalty.  (an example: Ibn Khaldoun Prolegomenes p, p.469-476“To non Muslims we must give the choice : the Islam or decapitation”.) 
(‘Quote from an article in the web site of
ISIS:het Instituut voor Secularisering van de Islamitische Maatschappij)
 
G:-COMMENTARY ON THE NEWS:
A religion that preaches violence and blood-shed instead of wisdom,
is like the vampire who sucks your blood and kills your spirit,
 To make you a bloody criminal in name of the Holy Spirit.
And if such a belief says a man is superior to a woman,
one may ask: Superior in what? In murdering?
 
G:-IF ALLAH OF THE KORAN IS ALL POWERFUL,
WHY DOES HE NOT GIVE WISDOM TO PEOPLE
INSTEAD OF MAKING WAR AGAINST THEM?
· xxxii.32 If We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance,
· but now My Word is realised -'I shall fill Hell with jinn and men together.'
(Contradictions in the Koran: FROM THE WEB SITE ISIS)

 


 
 G:-(??????) DOES YOUR GOD ALLAH  LOVE TORTURE AND BLOOD BATHS?  (??????)
The God of the Incas probably asked  for their hearts, their love
.-What did the stupid believers do in the temples of the Incas?
Killed people, cut the hearts out and offered them to the God….
(The God of the Old Testament, asking for offerings,
liked  the smell of blood!: Numeri 28.2-


 
G:-THE FIRST CRIME IN THE BIBLE WAS COMMITTED BY CAIN, A MAN, NOT A WOMAN.
THE FIRST MEN TO CONTRADICT THE COMMAND OF LOVE
'THOU SHALL NOT KILL' WERE THE VERY ONE WHO BROUGHT THE WORDS.
(MOSES AND MOHAMMED.)
IF YOUR HOLY BOOK TEACHES YOU TO MAKE WAR AGAINST YOUR OWN BROTHERS
IN ORDER TO KILL THEM , YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF CAIN
NOT THE FOLLOWER OF GOD, OF LOVE.
 

 
 "THE GOD OF A PETTY MIND IS A PETTY GOD''
as once said a wise man called Krishnamurti.
 
Dear Erci, this is at the end of our discussion on the website.
do you have anything more to add to the dialogue?

 

 

 
 (1 April)
Erci:- ALLAHU AKBAR !!!!!!!!!!!

G:- By saying that 'God is the greatest (ALLAHU AKBAR ) you do not say anything,
because what you call God could be a Hitler.
By answering so, you just avoid my questions,
avoid looking at the truth of the incoherences in the Koran,
showing me you are neither humble nor intelligent nor brave
to at least admit a fault when you see one...
Or you can not see... 
By the way, (the Autobiography of ) Hitler,
 the most diabolic mass murderer of modern history,
is very popular these days in Turkey among the young male population...
 
What is your idea of God?
Answer 4 April 2005:
 
Erci:- Allah is love and love is beautiful !  
G:- Yes, my dear Erci, that is what I say. God is love.
Love is God. If you say Allah is Love and is beautiful,
 which Allah do you mean, 
The one( before Mohamed came to power ?): 
"To you be your religion, and to me my religion" (109:6).
or the one ( after Mohamed came to power?)
 the one of Terrorists?
'Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day,...
 
 
Do you mean the one who taught like Christ to love our neighbours,
or the one like the anti Christ, who crucified Jesus? 
He who taught to love and pray for those who persecute us.
 
G:-The whole America and the World were shocked and scandalized
at the abuses of  war prisoners in Iraq by some real idiots.
 What Mohammed in the Koran did with prisoners does not scandalise you?
It is incomparably worse than the work of those idiots.
It is truly barbaric and devilish, only comparable to the racist
mass murderer madness of Hitler.
Is the Koran  the voice of  love, of God?
 
69:30 "Seize ye him, and bind ye him,
69:31 "And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.
69:32 "Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits!
69:36 "Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds,
 The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle,
 and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution,
or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side (etc)...
 extract (from a letter of free thinkers and humanists of Islamic origin.)
 
 
 And if you find it still that He is Word of the God of love,
 I do not know where you have your head !!! 
 
  If you, after this dialogue mean both,
that God is Love and the book of Mohamed is the Word of God,
 you speak with a double tong of the snake.
 
If you agree with me that God is Love,
you must admit that you were
mistaken in saying that all what is written
in the Koran is the word of God.
 
Be humble and brave and honest enough to admit it!
************ 
Now I have to go to town to try to catch liberate a poor pigeon
from a cord which is causing an inflammation on her feet.
Do you like to help me? 
Sincerely yours, in love for the Truth,
 
 
 April 10,

Erci: Yes Indeed Allah is love and Beautiful !!!

May Allah open everyone hearts
so they can come closer to him inshallah.

*** 
April 14, 2005

G:- Erci, JE BLIJFT MAAR ROND DE POT DRAAIEN !
(In Flemish. It means:
 -Ercy , you keep avoiding the point, "turning round about the pot."
Light and peace to you my friend.
Greetings,
 van Chapman
30 April 2005
 

G:- Good day Erci 
These days I met another Muslim from your neighbourhood.
To resume, when I mentioned contradictions in the Koran,
 he said Muslims only discuss with other Muslims about the belief. 
 
There was a question you never answered me:*
 (If you say that a particular book is the word of God),
 do you say that because you have read all and agree in your heart
with all that is written finding all very just,
or because you would agree with anything
just because it is written in a so called Holy book?

 
5 may
Erci :- Hi thank you for the mail ..
I hope Allah opens everyone’s heart and they will see the light ! Inshallah  


G:-Dear Erci,
(REPEAT)
There was a question you never answered me:*
 (If you say that a particular book is the word of God),
do you say that because you have read all and agree
with all that is written finding all very just,
or because you would agree with anything
just because it is written in a so called Holy book?


 
May 08, 2005 
Erci:- Hi thank you for the mail.
 Yes the Qor'aan is the Holy Book and the word of Allah. I hope everyone lives like the Qor'aan tell us Inshallah.
I have a guestion for you? The leader of that church of love has commidded sueside? (committed suicide)
How come he did that ?? if he found the love that you all are talking about ??
*** 
May 10
G: Dear Ercy, -First I am trying to answer your question:
I do not know any Church of love except the consciousness and heart.
 
There can be a communion of people in true love,
 at any time or place in human history.
 
There can be an individual,
 who has true love in his or her heart and mind,
and it does not matter in what tradition or religion he was born into.
 
Love gives one freedom from all religions and traditions.
Freedom from tyranny, from having to agree with anyone
or with any holy book, because love alone is just.
 
If a father or mother came to save his children
as prophets and saints should do in relation to mankind,
they should not came to kill them,
but to kill their spiritual ignorance with wisdom.
 
Buddha was such a holly non-violent wise man,
(but the leaders of the fanatic sect of the Taliban,
 inspired in the violence in your holy book, the Koran,
blew up the statues of the Buddha in their land).
 
The Bible story tells that Christ gave his life to save others,
 out of love for them, but would not kill them himself ,
nor teach anyone to kill a non believer, as Mohammed seems to have done.
 
If Mohamed taught that to kill unbelievers is rewarded with heaven,
the most important difference between the attitude of Jesus and that of your prophet,
as far as I can see, is that Jesus gave his life to save people
armed only with his love, while Mohammed, if history is true,
though having once taught that there is no compulsion in religion,
did not mind to mass murder those who did not believe in ‘his version’
 of the will of God.
 
Jesus did not suicide; he was murdered,
and did not defend himself with violence.( Is that the reason why
to be a friend of Christians is prohibited in the Koran?)
 
 
 
 
 
Because beliefs always contradict each other in something,
to belong to a belief is to belong to a party, a team
 against another in a spiritual football.
To be open for the truth
 is to be trully on everyone's side.
 
 
 
- You know, my friend, 
Jesus said that God is love,
-and contrary to Mohamed,
he told his disciples to love their enemies,
not crucify them.
.
.
If anyone taught unquestioning obedience
 to a religion contradictory to love,
 he committed a spiritual crime
and a spiritual suicide .
 
If anyone taught there is no compulsion in religion,
then promised heaven for killing infidels,
 
he created a contradiction impossible to reason with,
Where diverging parties justify murdering each other as infidel,
an endless conflict, so long his words remain unquestionable.
 
(see what is happening between Sunnis and Shia Muslims in Iraq).
 
If Mohamed or a Pope or any prophet
 in name of God
would not be questioned,
but would slay those who do not believe him,
 he is the number one terrorist.
 
 
 
Now I try to understand your answer.
 
 
 You said last:(Ercy:- 'Yes the Qor'aan is the Holy Book
and the word of Allah. I hope everyone lives like the
 Qor'aan tell us Inshallah.)
 
*
Is this your answer, Erci?
 
You mean that even if you have not read the Koran
 you would agree with everything it is written in it,
even if it made no sense to you?
 
 
 
11 may 2005
 
G:- Good day Erci 
 
I told you I met another Muslim from your neighbourhood.
and when I told him I saw contradictions in the Koran,
 he said Muslims only discuss with other Muslims about the belief.
 
To wage a bloody war on non- Muslims you may, or you must,
for the sake of the Islam. But to have a friendly, sincere,
 critical dialogue with non Muslim , about the Islam  you may not?
 
Is the Islam afraid of reason? 
The same happened to the Nazis under Hitler, by the way.
There was no discussion against the regime or you were dead.
 
Hitler also said he knows best. You do not know.
You were born to be his slave. Not to think at all,
not to feel but what he said you had to feel.
He also ordered to exterminate a people because of their belief.
Is that what you call Holy ?
Light and peace to you my friend.
Geraldine

Light and peace to you my friend.
Greetings,
 van Chapman
 
 
 

DIALOGUES
 
up to 11 May 2005  
 
 Should all people of the Earth share the same belief
or understand the true meaning of love ?
 
Beliefs are many, truth, love, is but one.
*  IF ALLAH OF THE KORAN IS ALL POWERFUL,
WHY DOES HE NOT GIVE WISDOM TO PEOPLE
INSTEAD OF MAKING WAR AGAINST THEM?
 
Love does not tyrannize,
Love does not ask to be flattered
but to be understood.
Love is patient to explain.
Who kills another for not flattering them
are the criminals of the mafia, the bandits of the slums,
the corrupt Cesars, the arrogant dictators,
 the false prophets, the false Gods.

 
PROJECT 
Philosophic Community
 
 
 Observations are welcome…
 
 
 
www.naturestudio.net 
Dialogue with Erci
 
Because you were so proud of yourself, that your belief should rule the world.
 I thought; how could you mind if your face was revealed ?
 But I was wrong. please forgive me.

I thought only the women were supposed to be veiled in the Islam !




 
The following is a Synthesis continuation of the dialogue 
with this Turkish man from Gent I call Erci:  
from 3 March 2006
 
Beliefs are many,
truth, love, is but one.

 PROJECT 
Philosophic Community


www.naturestudio.net  
 
 
 
According to the radio news the Pope has sent a message concerning the problem of the Cartoons of Mohammed.
He said people should have understanding for the reaction of the Muslims.

He said that the right of free speech does not give someone the right to hurt the 'religious feelings' of others.
But the Pope is not in a position to solve the religious conflict, if he is confusing religious feelings
 with unquestioning submission to an authority, not wanting to see his faults;
The pride of the Catholic Church has maintained for centuries the illusion of the infallibility of the Pope.
 An illusion History has clearly and justly unmasked.
If we look in Historical perspective, the subservience of the unquestioning masses of people confounded
with religious feelings  that have been the cause of the greatest atrocities, in name of God. 
We can look at the Mayas and the Incas for an example: They killed humans in a most horrible way
 as offers to God in their temples, out of their ‘religious feelings’.
If in any time in History, if in any religious authority there is an incitation towards discrimination, 
enmity or cruel violence against our fellow humans as in the teachings of Mohammed,
  is a moral duty to criticize it, even if one hurts someone’s ‘ religious feelings.
No light can enter a relationship if you cannot question.

**********************************************************************************

Video: Dr. Wafa Sultan on Al Jazeera (memritv.org)
To friends
Congratulations to Dr. Wafa Sultan on video on Internet
VIDEO in this addrzss
 http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

New York Times, March 11, 2006
John M Brother
, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles,
nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book.
- DR. WAFA SULTAN

***

 in the Photo: the Judge holding a Bible


Afghan man faces death after leaving Islam for Christianity
Prosecutors, judge, family insist convert should die

By Kim Barker
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published March 21, 2006
KABUL, Afghanistan -- This story contains corrected material, published March 22, 2006.

kbarker@tribune.com
***********************************************************
 
 
 


Love, America and the Islam
 
Of course it is obvious what I write. But it is because one will not see or say the obvious
that there is war, in other words, it is because there is deceit or self deceit,
that human relationships can be hopelessly violent and cruel.

It is perhaps because we do not want to see the evident in our own personalities,
our own holy national or religious traditions, that conflicts become endless, like the one in Iraq.

Love says: -Do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself.
Where finger pointing may only be one way, from the man to the woman, from the master to the disciple

there is no true relationship; (one is actually doing to another what one would not be done to oneself.)
In a true relationship a sincere critic is received without anger or violence.
(Let us be true to ourselves, is that how we take a criticism?) If a judgement is unfounded,
one can explain oneself, not cut off the head of the other for it.
If well founded, one can learn and evolve from it.

Whole America and the world was scandalized at the abuse of prisoners in Iraq
by some American military idiots. And there are still idiots like them walking around
with uniforms, in all armies, with some officials trying to cover it up.

Muslims had the right to be scandalized by it. But are Muslims not shocked
at what Mohammed himself prescribed against war prisoners?
Many are, but do not dare to say it, I have the impression.

Much worse than the abuse of war prisoners in Iraq or in Guantanamo prison
is part of the Islamic Constitution, in the Koran, in the barbaric medieval
war practices of Mohamed, that may nor be seen nor criticized in the Islam.
(as if barbarism can ever be just or Holy).
Does each one find oneself a hero in doing just what one condemns another for?
Just that or even worse?
In America, however wrong presidents may act, citizens are allowed free thinking and speaking,
even to criticize their governments.
Does the Islam consider any sincere critic to itself?
Or does the Islam promote bloody wars against its opponents but condemns dialogue?
Is the Islam afraid of reason? Afraid to lose the battle in the level of intelligence?

Who does not consider criticism does not evolve.
If the Islam refuses honest objections to it will remain forever in the middle ages.

In a 'Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Free thinkers and Humanists of Muslim
Origins' (published in: www.naturestudio.net / letter from humanists),
one reads that Mohamed ordered to kill a poet just for writing with irony about him.

This is common in ego-cantered relationships between humans, as in dictatorships:
-to silence any critic against them, to promote authority and obedience,
to silence self- awareness and understanding.
 
Americans are afraid of the proliferation of atomic bombs in other countries.
But are Americans not scandalized that the defence of their country not only produces
but has even used weapons of mass murder?
 
Does each side justify in itself what it blames the other to do?

***

To ask for understanding
is a higher form of relationship than to ask for blind obedience.

Authorities, presidents, prophets, fathers, priests, take confession from others,
but do they confess their faults to the people?

Obedience is very important for the new pope Benedictus, I hear in the news.
Obedience to whom? To the Holy Catholic Church? Who is holy?

We must not forget the Church has committed many crimes against humanity,
by acting like fundamentalist terrorists in the time of the Crusades and Inquisition.
Was it not a sin, then , obedience to the Church?

Is it not a sin at any time, to obey terrorists and torture and kill people?
Is it not a crime to obey idiots, even those in military uniforms,
even the presidents or prophets if they order you to commit a crime
against your fellow humans, against any conscious being?
Love submits to no one, but to love alone.
.
People who find themselves virtuous in possession of power,
will try to convince you that it is a virtue for you to obey them.
Let us hope that is not the case with the new Pope, with the new leaders of men.
 

Nationalism is often to be kind to nationals, but not to foreigners.
Religious fundamentalism is to be kind to believers, but not to unbelievers.

How can it be a religion of truth, one which says God only guides the just,
not the unjust? It is the unjust that are lost and need guidance.

Love is patient to explain to those who do not understand it.
If we could only love the just and the perfect person,
 there might never be anyone to love.

Religions must rise above the limitations of its prophets
to join the spiritual community of the whole world,
as countries must surmount the narrowness of their nationalism,
uniting with all the nations of the world, in a spirit of love,
of intelligent dialogue, not war.


As individuals, we must grow out of the greed for power,
through the love of justice.


And is only just that we love each other.



***************************



After writing ‘Love, America and the Islam,
I knocked at the door of Erci’s home, and his mother opened the door and called him with a smile.

When he came out of his house, with friendly enthusiasm I said to him
he was inspiring me, what he laughed with.

I gave him a copy of the text, asking him to help me find someone to translate
it into Turkish, because I intended to give it out to the people in the Turkish cafés
for helping the peace in the neighbourhood and in the world.
Looking at the paper he objected immediately about the story that Mohammed
had ordered the death of someone for criticising him: ‘-This is bullshit! It is a lie!’ he said to me.

‘-It is not I who said this’, I answered him. (It were in fact (free thinker) Muslims
who wrote it to other Muslims)?

‘-Listen to me’, he said, ’-you have to read the Koran in its wholeness,
not only take one isolated part of it.’‘- What if one did that with the Bible?...
’-Mohamed is the kindest men I know…’

(As far as I see, one does not have to speak to someone very long nor read a whole book
to find in them flagrant contradictions.)

‘-Listen to me’, he kept saying, in his normal dominating way,
and I told him I would, but he also had to read this text. He said he would.
He looked as if he was cold, tense and shivering.
He explained that the reason there are words against Christians in the Koran
is that they were at war with the Muslims. ‘-Now there is no war…’
And he asked me : ‘-Are you not a Christian?
’–No, I said , I defend love, I am love’s lawyer.’

‘-And why do you speak so much about Jesus?’

‘-Because I have to give credit to someone where he deserves.

‘-But Americans, Christians make war’, he said.

‘- If people make war to kill people they are not being real Christians ’I said.

‘-Do you have to give the other cheek, then?’ he asked.
( Jesus, contrary to Mohamed did not teach to return violence with more violence.)
‘-You said Mohamed is terrorist number one…’

(What I said is that if Mohammed ordered believers to kill someone
for being an unbeliever he is terrorist number one.)
I suggested he give me a copy of the Koran so we can look into it together.

‘- It will take time’. And he said to me he would rather stop with writing each other
and I come to him to discuss personally. ‘-It is dangerous... Erci told me.

‘-You know you could be killed for saying things like that? I say this to you as a friend.
-What if someone killed your Love?’

‘-No one can kill my love. Not even if they kill me’, I reassured him.

(I thought to myself: my love, my God, is not in a book, but in my soul...)

‘-Do you know there are more than a billion people who believe (in the Islam)?said Erci.
‘_I am a world betterer’, I explained, smiling.

‘First you must better yourself’ He said.

I gave him a kiss on his cheek, and before leaving with the bicycle, turned to him, and said that
I would not kill him…
and he smiled.
 If it is a true or not the story that Mohamed killed a poet for writing with irony about him, ,
(something only a mafia criminal, or power blind tyrant would do), I do not know.
But if it is so dangerous to question Mohamed’s ethics, you could be killed for it, that only
 confirms about the believers the wrong attitude that is denied.
 
Light and peace to you.
 


Dialogue with Erci
 Love, or the Koran.

-Let us be true, Erci, in this written or spoken dialogue.
 Now you can read our debate on the website,
 we could be speaking before the whole world!

Do your best,
 I will do my best not let you down.
van Chapman
 
 

 


Suicide bombing
 
A doctrine or religion that converts through violence and blood-shed
instead of wisdom,
is like the vampire who sucks your blood and kills your spirit,

transforming you in a criminal in name of the Conpassionate Holy Spirit.

If such a doctrine teaches that a man is superior to a woman, one may ask:
Superior in what? In murdering?



Light and peace to you my friend.
Wishing all the best in life to you,
van Chapman
 





 

A canary I let free from his cage in Brasil some years ago.

A terror-free Spring time!
 

 

 

 letter to Premier of Belgium,
explaining this philosophic project:

 
Dear premier Verhofstadt,
 
once I wrote to President Bush that the best war on terror is a good question.
Violence is a stupid argument or way to convert anyone.

This is what I also say to the adepts of the Islam.

Let me offer you a part of a dialogue with a Turk in Gent which I published on my website.

 This is the confrontation between a spiritual notion of love and the justice in a relationship
and the notion of the Islam that came through and during this dialogue.
My first language is Portuguese.
In spite the fact that I have not let revise the texts by an English teacher yet,
my understanding of this conflict is crystal clear.
 
If Muslim terrorists could understand what I want to say
and were sincere, the problem would be solved!

 
Best wishes, van Chapman




A terror-free Spring time!
 

van Chapman Philosophic Community project www.naturestudio.net






In the name of the most merciful ?!:
BBC News Monday, 20 March 2006, 13:15 GMT Afghan on trial for Christianity

 
The trial judge holds the bible he says belonged to the accused An Afghan man is being tried in a court in the capital,
Kabul, for converting from Islam to Christianity.
Abdul Rahman is charged with rejecting Islam and could face the death sentence under Sharia law unless he recants.
He converted 16 years ago as an aid worker helping refugees in Pakistan. His estranged family denounced
him in a custody dispute over his two children. It is thought to be Afghanistan's first such trial,
reflecting tensions between conservative clerics and reformists.
Conservatives still dominate the Afghan judiciary four years after the Taleban were overthrown.
The BBC's Mike Donkin in Kabul says reformists, like the government under President Hamid Karzai,
want a more liberal, secular legal system but under the present constitution it is hard for them to intervene.
'Tolerance' Afghanistan's post-Taleban constitution is based on Sharia law, and prosecutors in the case says this means Abdul Rahman,
whose trial began last Thursday, should be put to death.
" We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him " Trial judge Ansarullah Mawlazezadah
When he was arrested last month he was found to be carrying a bible and charged with rejecting Islam which is punishable
by death in Afghanistan.
to continue see Philosophic community



You say your Allah is Great,
but I say true love is Greater!
Light and peace to you my friend.


ANSWER TO THE THREAT OF A MUSLIM

The following is a continuation of the dialogue with a Turkish man from Gent I call Erci:   
 For a year or so I have been trying, in spite the language difficulties on both sides
and our cultural differences, to create a dialogue with him, defending love's superiority
over thee rule of all people, and all religions,
including the Islam…
 (from 17 Jan 2005 up to 16 May 2006) 

 
What I try to say to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
  One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
 nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
  by cutting off his head.
van Chapman, Philosophic Community project 
www.naturestudio.net
 


(26 April to 16 May 2006)

 


 Dialogue with Erci:
ANSWER TO THE THREAT OF A MUSLIM
 
A God who could send someone to eternal hell

 instead of opening his heart and teaching him, is an impotent God.
 
The God who demands unquestioning obedience in a crime
is not the God of love and understanding and light.
 
A God who could ask you to murder your own son because he said so,
is the father of all slavery, of all tyranny and all criminality.
 
A man who can stone his woman never really loved her,
A man who can hate or beat or kill his wife out of jealousy, never really deserved her.
 Much more true if he allows himself to have more than one, five or a harem of women.

Love or the Islam ?



Stoned to death  

Is this the Justice of the kindest man you say you know, the right of men to lapidate a woman
for doing just what they justify themselves in doing?
(having more than one sexual mate?)

It revolts me. It is no God, who can lapidate a living being, or a human.
 If this is your last prophet Mohammed’s justice, he did not evolve from the Stone Age, on the contrary.
 
And you, Erci, say it is the will of God !
'I have given myself up to Allah, Erci explained.
As to myself, I have to thrown up from it!
 You are studying international right, you told me.
 Is this what  you want to be the International law? Lapidation ?

-Who can do this to a human is certainly not God but the devil!

 
 Who can digest AND ADORE a barbaric butcher is a barbaric butcher himself,

or just a coward not to denounce the truth:
 this is what you want me to swallow:
the one who does this bar baric butchering  is the Most Compassionate one!
 If this is not hypocrisy I do not know what is !  

How a human could do this to another human is beyond my understanding.

 

 

 

 

I told Erci that he was stupid. Stupid? He was offended. How can you feel offended that I call you stupid,
my friend? You agree with  the horror, the terrorism of lapidating!
You should know how it feels, to be lapidated!
The Islam is a religion for insensitive men.
 They have a lot to lose if they forsake their religion, they might be killed by some fanatic madman,
and they have a lot material to gain, lot of women to dominate, to marry. (-No, only five, Said Erci.).
 And if any of his  women falls in love with another she may be stoned?, (She can divorce, he answered).-
So I do divorce the Islam, before even marrying it!
I divorce your Prophet, the Koran and its tyrannical rule before ever falling into its seductive grip..
 
Because to fight for the Islam is a command in their Koran,
 unquestioning belief, lying, terror, violence, oppression and cover up,
justified as self defence are more important than sincerity or truth in the Islam.
The faults of your Prophet will go on forever, if from the beginning, if the history is true,
 he would not admit a critic  and killed those who criticised!

  

( "The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma
became Muslims because they feared for their lives."from the history of Mohammed.
Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,

 the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.
****************************************************************
(CAN ISLAMIC LAW EVOLVE?
Under Islamic law, execution should be public in order
to enhance its alleged effect of general deterrence.
It is to be carried out with the sword, as a general rule,
 except in the case of adultery, where lapidation is employed.(quote)
William Schabas is professor and chair of the department
of law at the University of Quebec, Montreal.
Continue at the page Letter from Humanists)
**********************************************************************************************************
It is not Peace be upon Mohammed only you should say,
but peace be between all people...
As a good Muslim you must always speak of the kindness of the prophet
 when you want to seduce women or people or the whole world to your belief,
 but you leave out the horror or hide the terror practices in the Islam.
You asked me Erci, what is the opposite of love?  
 
The opposite of love is injustice, hate, greed, jealousy, arrogance, tyranny, prejudice,
discrimination, inequality, slavery, demand for blind obedience, untruth , pretentiousness,
vanity, pride and insensitivity,  blind belief even in murder,  and so on.

 The moment a person, a prophet or God, does not win through the power of the truth
but through the love for power, even at the cost of truth, he is fallen, spiritually.
-‘The Sun shines for everyone’, you said to me yesterday on the street, Erci.
Is beautiful that you see it! The Sun shines indeed for believers as for unbelievers.

In your friendship and love, my Muslim friend, be like the Sun, not like the Islam.

Birthday of the prophet Mohammed
What man would give up his privileges as a man in the Islam, and risk his life,
for the sake of sincerity, and truth,  for the sake equality,
of a more understanding and compassionate Justice,
and indiscriminating friendship and love?
 

The truth is that a believer like Erci (as he affirmed himself before me and a friend in front of an Imam,)
 he might even cut off the fingers of someone if it is written in his holy book,
 and he will think he is very pure and holy in doing so
and another must find his religion very respectful!

But an opponent has no right even for a critic on his belief.
A verbal critic on the other side as an opposition is already too much



During a meeting, in a commemoration of the birthday of the prophet Mohammed, April 17 2006
 in the Centrale, in Gent, Belgium, a Muslim who does not know me (hardly), brother of the Turk Erci aggressed me verbally,
before the people around, throwing hateful insults at me and threatening to destroy and to crush me.
First Erci did not allow me to tell to the Imam in the atelier that his brother had threatened me,
'not to talk bad about people' , then said he does not know…it is not his responsibility what his brother does.
But I had already told it to the Imams in the commemoration of the birthday of Mohammed,
even to the Muslim representative (vertegenwoordiger) of the Kamer of Belgium present,
with a copy of a recent dialogue on the web,
where Erci's photo and mine were probably in.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
The following was placed on my website in the page Dialogue with Erci
 and sent through Erci to the aggressor as my response:
.


 
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 

 
see also letter from humanists in  
 www.naturestudio.net
or copy and search in Google:
 Call to the Muslims from a group of free thinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origin
 
 
( "The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma
became Muslims because they feared for their lives."
from the history of Mohammed.
Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
 the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

 
 
 
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
Love or belief ?
That depends what you define love to be:
for me, love is the spiritual awareness of what is.

 If you chose a belief rather than love,
 you reject the awareness of what is.

There is only the truth,
what is, and the consciousness,
 the love, which can see it,
and the unconsciousness,
 which can also be the infinite thoughts,
or beliefs, about the truth, about what is.


Thoughts or beliefs can conflict with what is and with each other.
If you chose for a belief rather than Love,
you chose not to see what is.
 





  
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 
Conclusion dialogue with Erci: 


 
Because you were so proud of yourself, dear Erci,
that your belief should rule the world,
 I thought : how could you mind if your face was revealed to people?
 But I was wrong. Please forgive me;
I thought only the women in the Islam were supposed to be veiled.
 
If in a combat for supremacy, that one belief alone should rule the world,
one belief would terminate the other beliefs by tyranny and slaughter of people
rather than by the clear light of love and truth,
all that will be left in this world is a belief without love.
 
What are you waiting for to see this? For the Last Judgement day?
 Don’t say poor Islam! It can tell you to discriminate people according to their belief,
crucify prisoners, chop off the fingers and slaughter people,
and even stone women to death but it cannot even take a critic!

And you?

 
Neither you nor I, nor a prophet nor a God
 are worthy without love.
 
DIALOGUE WITH ERCI

from 13 March 06


 
 
Love does not tyrannize;
 Love does not ask to be flattered but to be understood.
Love is patient to explain.

Who kills another for not flattering them
are the criminals of the mafia, the bandits of the slums,
the corrupt Cesar's, the arrogant dictators, the false prophets,
the false Gods.
 
Beliefs are many,
truth, love, is but one.


 
van Chapman
www.natutestudio.net
 
 
 
 
From a discussion in the aula of the University of Gent in March this year
With the representatives of the Vlaams Belang and the Islam.
The Muslim representative complained about the 'Eigen volk eerst.' policy of the Vlaams Belang,
complaining, in fact, of an aspect in which the Vlaams Belang and the Islam are quite similar:
In several verses of the Koran it is understood the policy 'OWN PEOPLE FIRST'
‘Be kind to believers and hard to unbelievers’.
During the discussion panel in the Aula  I contributed with one question:
 'If it is true that Mohammed has murdered someone for criticizing how he made war against non -Muslims,
is a good Muslim supposed to justify it?'
A young Muslim from Gent, Erci, (who had taken me to the meeting at the University)
 told me he could not justify it, but he did not believe in the truth story.
(So it is a young man with a sense of justice.)
PROJECT 
Philosophic Community











What I try to say to this Muslim, is this:
 One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
nor brings order to someone’s thoughts
 by cutting off his head.  
 Do your best,
 I will do my best not let you down.  van Chapman
THIS PAGE OF THE SITE IS BEING WORKED ON;
PROJECT Philosophic Community www.natutestudio.net
See in Google: Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers
and Humanists of Muslim Origin.
 
 
PROJECT Philosophic Community www.natutestudio.net
Conclusion dialogue with Erci
 
The position is clear:
Love between us is the only true religion, not what one believes in.
 there is no Purity in someone nor true religion in someone
 the moment that hate is in his eyes, heart, words or deeds.
Hate and violence for another is not wisdom, is not from love or God,
You may justify it as ego self defence. Then leave God out of it.
In advising brutal violence as a way of domination of a belief,
 Mohammed’s Allah forsake wisdom and compassion,
the way of the Buddha and Ghandi, and Jesus Christ.
 
The moment Mohammed believed that for the sake of his own personal belief and territory,
the Most Compassionate, the all powerful creator, who could open the spiritual eyes of anyone
if he so wanted, preferred to impose a belief as a butcher of people, to punish a small human weakness 
 with a horrible crimes like cutting off heads or fingers off people,
he justified the saying that 'Allah was born dead'. Because he missed the point.
 
The truth is there is no other victory than the victory of love,
 even if we lose in the battlefield.
 
And it is not because someone is younger, the latest prophet  that he is wiser than an older one.
Jesus Christ only realised the same as Buddha the hour of his death,
when he asked his father the butcher of people to forgive humanity
for( obviously) they do not know what they do, when they are evil.
 
They need light, not to be murdered.
The slaughtering God of the Old testament had to learn wisdom of Buddha from the words of his son Jesus!
So time means nothing because for love time does not exist.
 
 Love exists from before man existed.
Even in some animals there is love, for they can be sensitive to love,
 and even they deserve to be loved not only to be butchered.
 
 If any people, Muslims, Christians or Jews  are  made to believe
by their leaders that they are superior in a spiritual way to others.
Then they can become prejudiced and  spiritually blind.
They have been told that by the God of a book, not by love.
Now they have to dispute the title in the battlefield?
 
 Muslims are not more dear to the Most Compassionate Ones than any other
human creature or group of people, specially not more than those who love
the non- violent, the peace makes, the lovers of equality of rights and freedom, truth and wisdom.
 
There is no purity in a book or religion if it counsels you to hate
 torture or kill with hate or butcher and violate anyone.
There is no pure book. Only True Love is pure.
Only love opens our hearts to the truth. Not butchery.
Only love can make us pure, free of the arrogance of the false pretence of knowledge and power..
 There is no one superior to love.
 
It is love, not a book nor a religion what makes us worthy.
Neither you nor I nor a prophet nor God are worthy without love.
The truth is simple, true love is simple, in everyone’s heart to be found.
It is not ‘Peace upon Mohammed’ or the prophets alone.
Peace upon all people who are true to the conscious of love their hearts.
van Chapman
www.naturestudio.net

 


 
13 March 06

Yesterday I came to the door of the house of Erci on the Wondelgemstraat with this letter for him.
He invited me cordially in to his ‘house of love’ as he put it, and invited me to share his lunch with other students.
He showed me the cur or mini garden through the back door and I told him I could give him some plants for it.
During the tea in the common student’s kitchen we had a discussion, Erci and I, before two student girls and later also
before a young man student, to whom I gave my article to the world press about the Cartoons and my recent letter to Erci, 
 that they might understand what was the discussion about.
Around the table, Erci, ( alluding to the question I posed to the last discussion panel with the Islam and the Vlaams Belang
 in the auditorium of the University of Gent), went so far as to admit that if Mohamed had killed someone
for criticising him he would not justify him to have done it, but he denied that this history was true.
During the debate I made the point again that the essential difference between Jesus and Mohammed was that Jesus
denied the disciple
 to defend his life with a sword and violence while Mohamed promised a paradise to those who would defend his life
with violence and killing.
I also repeated that the only true holy place was the spiritual love between us,’ that no man made personality we can
call God is as true and beautiful than Love itself.
Jesus’ kingdom is not from this world, while Mohammed’s religion is busy to defend with murder and violent war,
earthy things like the property of land and women, (five or ten women, while these women cannot even show their head to another man.)
 
 Not separating Church and State, material from spiritual matters, or gain, he created a Muslim State or material
city where there is discrimination and zero tolerance for people of other religions, since no unbeliever may enter it.
He manage to deny we look at the Koran for the evidence, turning things around, saying that I was disrespecting him,
that I had already lost the discussion but did not know it.
 He had already lost the discussion but did not know it, I told him, but I was nor hating him, on the contrary,
I found him a very nice and beautiful guy.
 
Next morning I came back to bring some ivy plants to the student house’s garden, with the following explanation to Erci
and the students who lived in his student home:
“If the Koran discriminates people of other beliefs like Christians who could be so loving not to defend their own life
with violence, in the example of Jesus, or Buddhists who could be so loving as not to kill a sheep to eat as Muslims do,
then the Koran is not the Spirit of love but the spirit of a medieval man called Mohammed, and if you want to deny people
 to see this, and do not want to see this yourself, there is something wrong with your justice, not with my reasoning or
for wanting to let you see this.“
66:9 O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,-
 an evil refuge (indeed). Quotation of the Quran translation Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Who is then is a Hypocrite? I should ask him.
 
 
 
 
 continuation of the dialogue with this Turkish man from Gent


 
Dialogue with Erci
 Love, or the Koran.

-Let us be true, Erci, in this written or spoken dialogue.
 Now you can read our debate on the website,
 we could be speaking before the whole world!

Do your best,
 I will do my best not let you down.
van Chapman

 
Letter to Erci
 
Dear Erci,
The only clear photo I made from you, you are looking angry to me.
Can I draw your portrait? Can we make an appointment?  
Sometimes you are open, loving. Sometimes you are dominant,
 pretending to be the one who knows and who has to teach me. Then you are not humble.
 Which of them are really you? To me the real you is when you are loving, open and humble.
 
You said once before that I do not reason properly. Then you said we are very close.
Which of them is true?
Males in general like to dominate. You call God a He. God for me is love itself.


Psychological domination does not let the other free to think for himself,
to see for himself, so it cannot be love.

 Love seeks to understand and to give understanding.
Not to be the one to speak and who will not listen.


 Love is harmonious union of the male and female qualities in us.
 
Most Muslim men I talk to likes to blame it all on Bush.
 But for the Islam they have no honest self criticism.
By wanting you only to see its bright side, concealing the truth
of its violent side, a person or a belief is simply lying-
 I repeat: If in the constitution of the Muslim State,
in the Koran, in a barbaric way it is ordered even the crucifixion
of the imprisoned unbelievers,
them, that is much worse than anything that has been done to Muslims
 by some criminal stupid militaries, in Guantanamo prison,
what is against the constitution of the USA. 
 
 Whenever Muslims say ‘Peace be unto him’ to Mohammed, even if they might not know it,
what they are really are saying is: Peace be unto Mohammed and Hell to his unbelievers,
for that is what Mohammed himself taught, literally, and what terrorists literally believe. 
 
How can anyone, any religion have real peace to give,
how can Mohammed or the Islam give real peace if in the end 
they deny the entrance of unbelievers in their land, dominate
by imposition and violence rather than through understanding?
If Mohammed when he came to power in Medina,
did not separate the spiritual gain from the material gain,
a very important concept in spirituality,
did not separate what is from Cesar from what is from God,
the spiritual values from the property over land,
women and secular power, if he did not separate the State from Religion,
by denying true and essential spiritual values of Christian, Hindu,
Buddhist and other ideologies and persecuting them,
Mohammed is indeed the terrorist number one. 
What is the spiritual superiority of domination trough violence? 
  If I put a knife on your neck and say if you do not believe me you are dead,
I might force you to say you believe no matter what. 
How can one open another’s mind through fear? open the mind to the Truth ?
 Hope you understand,  yours,  Geraldine van Chapman


 

March 25
 G. van Chapman sent to Erci
Subject: RE: Dr. Wafa Sultan,
 A RAY OF LIGHT -UM RAIO DE LUZ -UN RAYON DE LUMI`ERE
Click here to see video:
 http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
 

Answer from Erci
ERCI wrote: ALLahu Akbar.
May ALLah Open Everyones There HearT. IN shallah.
 

G. van Chapman wrote:
Dear Erci, you do not dare to give me a clear answer, do you?
 Do you justify or condemn the rule in a Muslim State to condemn to death a Muslim
for being converted to Christianity or another religion?
You once wrote this, Erci:
- “ hope one day you can see Islam in a other view.
 I believe in love to like you do we all do believe in love.
So lets love each other and have respect for everyone s believes.”
Does the Koran respect everyone's believes? The answer is -NO,
only the Islam itself... what in practice means whatever you understand the Islam to be,
and you are justified by your holy book to kill an unbeliever
(even another person if he does not understand the Islam to be the same thing as you do).
This is clearly happening in Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria even today.
You wrote this, Erci:- 
“ Remember don't see the bad sites of Islam or the world. See the bride site.
Every day open ALLAH peoples hearts to find the real love
Allah. I hope ALLAH opens yours to one day.
Islam with love will rule one day over the world you better be a part of it.
ALLAHU AKBAR !

With love from youre  MOSLIM BROTHER.. i love you all and the world “
 
Is this what you call the love of Allah, to condemn a Muslim to death
if he is converted to another religion?
Read again the Koran, and be honest: is the Koran not the origin
of this discrimination against people of other religions? 
Your prophet or the tradition of the Islam has soiled the word of God f this is what it results:
from the news:
'Afghan man faces death after leaving Islam for Christianity
Prosecutors, judge, family insist convert should die
By Kim Barker Tribune foreign correspondent published in March 21

G. van Chapman wrote:


Dear Ercy, I challenge you to say the truth -what is your meaning.

Be clear. Are you on the side of love or

of whatever it is written that God has said in the Koran,

even if it revolts your consciousness?

 
March 30 ERCI wrote:
 
Dear Chapwoman, i'm gonna ask you a question. The Right of self defence what is written in The EVRM
 is that against the Love that you are talking about or is the self defence a part of the love that you're representing ?

th you...


30 March
van Chapman wrote:
..Answer first my question,
then ask me one.

Let us be true in this written or spoken dialogue.
 Now you can read our debate on the website,
 we could be speaking before the whole world!
Do your best,
 I will do my best not let you down.

I repeat my question:
 I challenge you to say the truth !
Be clear. Are you on the side of love or
of whatever it is written that God has said in the Koran,
even if it revolts your consciousness?




 
 

April 01,Erci wrote (a bit corrected text):
HeLLooo Chapwoman..
Every Muslim Believes Every Word What is Said in The Qoran.
 We have The duty To understand those verses and look them up
when and why they where said by the Last profet Muhammed.
The verses in the Quran are a Light for our thinking a border for our doings.
I pray To ALLah That He opens everyone his hearts.
Remember Chapwoman: The more you Love the more you know !!!! <<< Rg.
 
Now Answer My Question:
Dear Chapwoman, i'm gonna ask you a question.
The Right of self defence what is written in The EVRM
 is that against the Love that you are talking about
 or is the self defence a part of the love that you're representing ?
th you...


If you are on the side of love, my reminder of the consciousness of love,
you can see this: You did not answer in a straight way.
 I am talking to an individual, to you, to any individual, not to a group.
You answered in the plural, what should be for all Muslims,
 not what actually is the true light for you:
love, or a book written by people in name of God: the Koran
, who as a parrot you should quote as the truth of God,
 even what may have nothing to do with love.
  Self defence usually has nothing to do with love for the truth.
Though one may be untrue and lie in self defence,
 it is simply absurd to lie in the name of the truth, of God.
 
Though one may hate and kill someone in self defence,
it is simply absurd to hate and kill in the name of love, of God.
 
 I hope you and all your Muslim brothers can see this.
I have to repeat what I try to share with you because you do not
follow it to the end. But I speak from myself, from my consciousness,
 not from a belief or someone else.
 
Most people, are unconscious parrots, repeating the words of another
they consider their master.
A parrot has no consciousness of what he repeats after others.
 You are not a parrot are you?
 

 

3 April G. van Chapman:
First I will answer your question, and then I will comment on your answer.
 
In the way of wisdom, of love, of truth, in a philosophic dialogue,
what is just is not the defence of oneself,
but the discovery or the defence of the truth.
 
V
Physical or psychological violence is not the way to defend the truth of love,
of wisdom and philosophy but the way of the enemy
of the truth of love, of wisdom and philosophy.
 
Socrates violated no one but was forced by his enemies
 to deny his teachings or die.
Socrates exemplified this defence of the truth,
 willing to pay for it with his death.
 
Truth needs not to defend itself by lying.
The same way, love does not defend itself by killing.
 
 Self defence is not to defend the truth or God.
Self defence, at the cost the of love for another, for our survival,
 does not prove our love, nor spiritual heroism,
but our weakness, egoism, spiritual inferiority.
If murder and hate is commanded as self defence
for a belief, for a religion, this proves the spiritual
inferiority of this religion in the light of Love.
 
 If a philosopher or a prophet, a book, or belief, tells us to kill in name of God
then the teaching of this book is the enemy of wisdom, philosophy,
and of the truth of love.



 
Erci wrote
April 04,

Read And thing pLs.
The Prophet Muhammad said,
"There is no better companion on this way than what you do. Your actions will be
your best friend, or if you are cruel and selfish,
your actions will be a poisonous snake that lives in your grave."

But tell me, can you do the good work without a teacher?
Can you even know what it is without the presence
of a Master? Notice how the lowest livelihood requires some instruction.
First comes knowledge, then the doing of the job. And much later,
perhaps after you're dead, something grows
from what you've done.

Look for help and guidance in whatever craft you're learning. Look for a generous
teacher, one who has absorbed the tradition he's in.
Here is one of the millions examples that I can give you about he love and peace in the Islam.

Muhammad says,
"Love of one's country is a part of the faith."

But don't take that literally!
Your real "country" is where you're heading, not where you are.

Don't misread that hadith.

 4 April
Answer G. van Chapman:
Dear Erci, Read the Koran and the history of Mohammed.
In philosophy it is the truth we are trying to find,
 not to self defend our national or religious or personal ego.
If Mohammed gave the bad example of advising killing for the sake of his Islam,
for the sake of power and authority and land, he took it literally.
and Mohammed himself was the first to misinterpret this 'hadith'.
 
And if we can learn with someone's mistakes, instead of following someone in his mistakes,
the true master is the consciousness (of love ) itself. Hope it is clear now.
 I think you can get it now.
 And I can take a better photo of you.
Geraldine.

April 07 Erci wrote

Dear Chapwoman


You're telling me that you're not A Believer But A FiLosifier.

isn't that incoherent with the believe in Love you have?

What Are you now a believer or A FiLosifer?

if I want to work with you I have the right to know with whom im working.

Yours Faithfully

Answer G. van Chapman:
 _I believe what is clear to me .
Like Thomas, love is clear to me, You are not.
Yours, Geraldine

13 April Dear Erci,
Tonight we met on the street. As friends we embraced and kissed each other.
You are not serious when you said I hate you. I hate no one (person).
I believe in the justice of love because it is clear to me
in my heart. You believe in a book you avoid showing me,
because it is not clear. You say I need to go to University to learn about it.
You are not serious when you insist I have to love the Islam.
 I love people, not a religion.
When I tell you what is happening in Iraq, how Muslims bomb each other each day you say:
-'Do you believe in Television? Who says from where the bombs come from ?'
When  you speak of the latest discovery of the life of Jesus,
(the latest news of the Gospel of Judas, I suppose), 
it serves your purpose, then you do believe in Television.
Read your Koran. That is where the bombs are coming from: 
from the nationalism of Mohammed: If one is justified to kill an apostate in the Koran ,
 that has nothing to do with love, so it is not from God.
 To fight for a land is materialism, not spiritual wisdom.  It is pure ego-trip- self-defence.

That is what is happening between the several tribes or several interpretations of the Islam.
That is why I say Love is clear, the Islam and you are not clear at all !.


Sincerely, Geraldine



From: Rg _ April 13
 
You and peopLe Like you will never understand IsLam.

Its not that you dont want isLam , iTs The IsLam Doesnt Want You !!.


April 14 2006
-G: Thank God!
 
 
-Erci: NO , Th Yourself !

April 15,
-G:Yes, thank myself. We are responsible for whom or what we consider the highest justice to be.
 Dear Erci, you are not honest with yourself, nor with me, my friend.
 You say you are student of international law,
but you cannot follow a simple spiritual reasoning a child could understand...
 
The God of the untrue and unconscious mafia is also 'eigen volk eerst',
own people first, the hell with the others.
 
 The highest  Judge or Justice or God, is love itself.
  Love is a friend all creatures, not only Muslims.
that is where Muslims like you fails to understand.
To teach that one should not be a friend of unbelievers,
as it is written in your Koran, is against all spiritual wisdom.
This a the narrowness or fault I see in the teaching you believe in.
You cannot justify this in your heart, so you are hiding the truth.
You are untrue, if you are not wanting to bring the actual Koran to the table.
 You are hiding what proves that all what I am saying is true.
 
You have seen it, I am sure, the unjust discrimination I talk about 
in the Koran, but will not talk about it. You deny the truth of all tyrannical violence
against love and reason in your holy book, and then say I have to take your word for it,
 and that it is I who do not understand the Islam.
 
I understand the contradiction within the Islam in essence,
not in kilometres of books. To defend a philosophy or religion through murder,
tyranny and torture or discrimination of women, or people of other ideas
what the Koran does, is not the way of love,
not the way of God, if God is Love. It is simply retarded barbarism.
What you might justify as self defence, nationalism and war,
 is creation of man's egoism, not the creation of Love.
Such sort of self defence is only a human weakness,
 not the power of wisdom, of love, which God should be.
by the stupidity of the bloody violent war against unbelievers
the most stupid argument to convert people to a religion, to love…
 
 
It is not that a person is younger, that a prophet is the last one chronologically,
 that he and his idea of God is necessarily the most Just.
 
 
Violence happening  from his time to the present time
for example in Iraq, even between Muslim brothers, much worse than between beasts in the wild.
 
I am still your friend, in the love of truth.

Geraldine

15 April  Erci came to the atelier for a visit.
-I am glad you are a person, not the Islam, for you say the Islam does not want me, I said.
 We had a talk and a tea in the kitchen.
With a convincing talent he told me the story of how Mohammed finally decided to allow his believers
to fight back the Mecans, and how he achieved with the help of Allah the victory over them and conquered them.
I said to him again that a physical battle was not the way of wisdom, nor the way to achieve a spiritual victory
(On both sides of a football match players pray to God).
 I said again to him that love looks at the heart of people not at what belief they belong to, so the discrimination
in the Koran to be gentle and kind to believers if the Islam and hard towards non believers was obviously against love
 and wisdom and justice. Even someone who drinks alcohol can have a pure and beautiful heart, while a Muslim
believer may not necessarily have.
I told him again that to admit that the Islam discriminates people according to a beliefbut did not want to
be discriminated according to belief, what he admitted was true, but Erci said he could not argue with the Creator.
I said again that Love can see the imperfections of another, belief not. For him he could not (or may not)
see any faults in Mohammed, in the Koran, in Allah

 
15 April  Erci came to the atelier for a visit.
-I am glad you are a person, not the Islam, for you say the Islam does not want me, I said.
 We had a talk and a tea in the kitchen.
With a convincing talent he told me the story of how Mohammed finally decided to allow his believers
to fight back the Mecans, and how he achieved with the help of Allah the victory over them and conquered them.
I said to him again that a physical battle was not the way of wisdom, nor the way to achieve a spiritual victory
(On both sides of a football match players pray to God).
 I said again to him that love looks at the heart of people not at what belief they belong to, so the discrimination
in the Koran to be gentle and kind to believers if the Islam and hard towards non believers was obviously against love
 and wisdom and justice. Even someone who drinks alcohol can have a pure and beautiful heart, while a Muslim
believer may not necessarily have.
I told him again that to admit that the Islam discriminates people according to a beliefbut did not want to
be discriminated according to belief, what he admitted was true, but Erci said he could not argue with the Creator.
I said again that Love can see the imperfections of another, belief not. For him he could not (or may not)
see any faults in Mohammed, in the Koran, in Allah
 
The pretence of the Islam of being the highest religion in the world is completely destroyed.
 
I told him again that love is the only force that can unite, solve the divisions created by men, even by religions like his.
At one moment he asked how could I be saying the truth since I had no followers.
 I told him again that quality has not to do with quantity: a person may be integer but be alone.
I asked him to choose: love or the Koran:
 He chose the Koran.
 
I was still his friend. I said, but he was not really being a friend,
 because he was not being honest. He was not able to admit the injustices
(he saw ) in Mohammed or the Koran.
He believes the whole world should adopt his belief,
 but I may not leave his photo or his true name published on the web as I do my own,
or he could even sue me for it.
 
 Good bye, I told him, -and do not discriminate others for their belief,
as the Koran tells you to.
 He seemed to agree with his head, and left.
van Chapman
 
 
 
Thank you for the visit, Erci.
You accepted my invitation to the dialogue knowing I was publishing it on my website.
 I ask you to join me in this peace project,
 and be true, and not afraid to assume responsibility for what you say.
 
I am asking people for a portrait and a philosophic dialogue as a peace project,
 completely free of charge.(though people may or may not buy their portrait afterwards).
 
I do not want to direspect people if they do not want to take part of this project.
 
 I have not put your real name in this website,
but I did your photo in this page and sent it immediately to you by e mail for you to see it, but you did not complain.
 
 I have put my own photo on the web. Do not to be afraid to show your true identity.
 
 
Peace is to be a friend of the truth in all, to be a friend of all,
 not to ask from others not to discriminate them
and to believe it is right to discriminate someone for their belief because it is written in a book.
 
 I would like to draw you also, if you accept to give your contribution to this peace project.
 
 
16/04/06
 
-G: Thinking bout what you told me, that a child may not even Uhhhh!
(say anything in a confronting way or disapproving way) toward their parents.
This rule from the Islam is typical male tyranny. I answer you with the same I told you before:
Males in general like to dominate. You call God a He. God for me is love itself.
Psychological domination does not let the other free to think for himself, to see for himself, so it cannot be love.

 


Ercy came to the atelier to invite me for another meeting with the Islam,
and I offered him something to eat...

 I asked him why he disdained the Christians and the Buddhists,.
 He said because they do not adore Allah.

He also told me that according to Mohammed it is not wrong to defend yourself,
 but to be patient is better.

So, on the basis of these words of your prophet , those doctrines that only preach non-violence
 are better, spiritually, than Mohammed himself or the Koran, which can promote enmity and war.

If you say God is the Most Compassionate, obviously those who refrain completely from
cruelty and violence towards others are closer to God than those who believe
in the Islam’s prejudice and hate for unbelievers.
Ghandi's passive resistance simply means: I will not bend my head to obey a tyrant, a murderer,
 but I also will not do as he does to me, tyrannise him or try to murder him, much less in name of Love,
in name of the Most Compassionate.

That is why Gandhi's , the Buddhists and many Christian's and many atheist's passive resistance and non violence
makes them more noble in my eyes than a doctrine that contradicts itself in this respect when prejudicing people
and being unacceptably barbaric and violent to people.

You said, if someone comes to violate my wife, should I let him do it and let others violate me too?
A tradition in name of God who allows a man to buy a wife from her parents as cattle, is not also violating?
And are you Muslims not (lowering your pants to a violator (to use a vulgaire expression) when you
accept a tradition to be above any criticism?

******************************************************



During a celebration of Mohammed's birthday.

 


According to Erci this is what a Muslim must believe in
A Muslim can only be a Muslim if he believes in God Allah.
He has to believe in the angels and in the books which came from God? the
Torah, the Bible and the Koran, all the prophets who were sent by God,
the Judgement day, Destiny, and that good and bad comes from Allah.
 
 Spiritual wisdom is to over hate with love,
 one cannot end end hate and violence with more hate and violence.
 
 Love between us is the only true religion, not what one believes in.
Because I say this, and I try to be consequent in my analyses of his belief,
a Muslim, without even knowing me, showed hate and despise for me, insulting me,

There is no true religion in someone if hate and despise is in his words and heart.
 



Ercy, You try to convince me that the Koran and the Islam is purity.
I have to repeat and repeat but it just does not go in:
There is no purity in a book or religion that counsels you not to be a friend of someone
because he is a Christian or a Muslim.
It is a contradiction to break the friendship with another in name of Religion, 
in name of union, in name of love.

The Qumran tells us: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians"
(5:51),
Only love unites, not a God who preaches discrimination on the basis of a belief!

You cannot unite or enlighten through tyranny, enmity, fear , terror or belief,
like the God of the Koran tries to do.
"instil terror into the hearts of the
unbelievers" and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all
their finger-tips off them (8:12).
Only through love and wisdom.
Only love opens our hearts to the truth. Only love can make us pure.

There is no one superior to wisdom of love.
It is love, not a book nor a religion what makes us worthy.

Neither you nor I nor a prophet nor God are worthy without love.





 


 


17April
-G:

There was a meeting in the atelier with an Imam and Ercy
but I may not record the event as I asked to do.
during the meeting I said

Let me propose you a dilemma:
 Suppose there was only one version of your holy book
and someone near you, and there was a great fire.
You could only save one or the other from the fire.
Which one would you save?
Which would you to choose: love or the Koran?

The Imam answered that Allah will keep the Koran, we do not have to worry.

during the meeting Erci defends the Islam and the Muslims as the ones destined to rule the world.
I told him I would not be ruled by the Islam.


During the meeting I brought a quote from the Koran :

 'I will cast terror in the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every finger tip of them'(8:12).
(The Imam said the cutting off of fingers was probably related to punishment for stealing.)

I raised my voice: No one can justify a greater crime to punish a small crime.
and when they left, I told Erci when he was already on the street:
I do not believe in the compassion of your God!

These things were written after the last debate with Erci in the presence of the Imam in the atelier.

***************************************


The first and most important reason
I reject the way of the Islam is that it has no capacity for self criticism.

Therefore all truly intelligent reasoning with a Muslim about the justice or injustice of it
and admitting the weakness of contradicting teachings in this Koran is out of the question.

What remains is to listen to an endless self defence and justification about the purity of the Islam even in tyranny and barbarism,
Which is felt by me as a psychological and emotional violence,
in a discussion with normal Muslims about their religion
one feels manipulated in every way to believe.


 



There are not two persons exploring together cosily. There is one, the macho,
who pretends to know always better than you and will convince you by all ways
even if it goes against reason or love.
 I can say I hate this way of talking. so writing is better.

 
************************************************************************
You said the Islam will rule the world.
I told you it will not rule me.
What will the Muslims do with the peaceful Buddhists, for an example?
Will they try to convince them that your Allah, a barbaric butcher of people
is more compassionate than the Buddha?
What Buddhists have to teach you Muslims is that it is possible to create goodness in people
without violence, and they are an example of it.



If you want to force people with violence and war,
you can fall yourself in the category of bloody criminals and devils.
If Muslims like to say that in the Koran it is written that "there is no compulsion in religion,"
how do they explain this contradiction?:

The Qur'an says that "those who invoke a god other than Allah not only
should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of
Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in
ignominy" (25:68). For those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger,
He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (48:13).
In philosophy it is the truth we are trying to find, not to self defend our national or religious or personal ego.
In defending ourselves one has no right to avoid seeing
or admitting our faults, or harm others
or bring false testimony against others:
Stop admiting the chaos caused by mutual justification of
violence and discrimination even between Muslims themselves,
and stop blaming all evils in the western society or America.


 (69:30-37) This is a terrorist who speaks, not God the most Compassionate one.
the Koran is not love nor better than love.
It is a false belief that victory by brute physical violence or brutal force
 proves the spiritual superiority of someone or the favour of God.

If Mohammed and his Allah discriminated and degradated any of the most compassionate
Buddhists or any other believer or unbeliever who is true and peace-loving
and non -violent to the to the rank of 'unbelievers'
who will burn in hell, because they did not adore the Allah of your prophet's visions,
the Islam violated people who are much better in love and compassion than itself..

Anyone can have visions awoken or sleep, called dreams.
Be free of authority that imprisons your mind.
Look at what someone says not at who is saying it.
Who is saying is the ego, what one is saying is the spirit.
In spiritually, only true love and wisdom legitimises what we say or do,
 

Once a man I consider to be a wise man, Krishnamurti, has asked:
How can a mind full of beliefs see clearly?

Ercy says through belief he sees clear.
Does he?
I said the Truth comes first, then the belief.
The Imam said truth and the belief are the same.
Is it?
 
My problem, is that I do not believe
Your problem to me is that you do not know how to reason:
I do not believe (what you want me to).
You do not know how to reason
 (without the constant need to ego self defence).
A book that has so many contradictions like this is not the pure word of God.:
"There is no compulsion in religion" and "Seize ye him, and bind ye him,
And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain,
whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe
in Allah Most High."
If you knew how to reason you would see :
If you must believe in Destiny, all is pre-designed by the Creator,
and that good or evil comes from God, our wisdom or stupidity
He is not a wise God to punish the stupid with slaughter and hell
when he has the power to make him wise.
You must believe in the last judgement,
IIf there is a last judgement it is right now:
it is not hating someone with heart in his heart and eyes because he does not believe,
but loving someone, whatever his sex, colour ,race or belief.
the final victory is not that of any belief .





 My position is clear:
  Love between us is the only true religion, not what one believes in.
there is Purity in someone, there is no true religion in someone if hate is in his eyes,
in his words and heart.
In advising brutal violence as a way of domination of a belief Mohammed’s Allah forsake wisdom and compassion, 
 the way of the Buddha and Ghandi, and the self sacrifice( rather than violent self defence) of Jesus Christ.
Because Mohammed believed God to justify a beastly violent war over belief and territory, in name of the
Most Compassionate,prejudicing one people from another, that justifies the saying that 'Allah was born dead'.
There is no purity in a book or religion if it counsels you to hate torture or kill with hate or violate anyone.
Only love opens our hearts to the truth. Only love can make us pure.

There is no one superior to love.
 There is no other victory than the victory of love, even if we lose in the battlefield.

It is love, not a book nor a religion what makes us worthy.
Neither you nor I nor a prophet nor God are worthy without love.
the final victory is that of love,

To conclude the dilemma
:Should all the Bibles or Korans be lost by the fire of their incoherence,
true love will show us a better way.
not 'peace be upon him' only in speaking the name Mohammed,
but more important, peace be upon Humanity!

from your friend in the love for the truth.
van Chapman







*****************************************************************
  
PROJECT 
Philosophic Community


What I try to say to this Muslim,

is this:
 One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
nor brings order to someone’s thoughts
 by cutting off his head. 
van Chapman
 
 
 
 Geraldine :
If you are on the side of love, my reminder of the consciousness of love,
you can see this: You did not answer in a straight way.
 I am talking to an individual, to you, to any individual, not to a group.
You answered in the plural, what should be for all Muslims,
 not what actually is the true light for you:
love, or a book written by people in name of God: the Koran
, who as a parrot you should quote as the truth of God,
 even what may have nothing to do with love.
 
 Self defence usually has nothing to do with love for the truth.
Though one may be untrue and lie in self defence,
 it is simply absurd to lie in the name of the truth, of God.
 
Though one may hate and kill someone in self defence,
it is simply absurd to hate and kill in the name of love, of God.
 
 I hope you and all your Muslim brothers can see this.
 
I have to repeat what I try to share with you because you do not
follow it to the end. But I speak from myself, from my consciousness,
 not from a belief or someone else.
 
Most people, are unconscious parrots, repeating the words of another
they consider their master.
A parrot has no consciousness of what he repeats after others.
 You are not a parrot are you?


 ***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 
Why be angry at me if  I do not want to destroy you,
but only destroy a false thought??
I want to impede that you destroy yourself and others, as a suicide bomber.

If the angel did not appear in the story of Abraham,
he would have killed his son.
What I am saying to you and to the fanatics of the Islam
in this philosophic dialogue is that: love is the voice of the Angel.
You may say Allah is great
but I say true love is greater.


Darkness vanishes, when the light comes in,
the ice melts, when the warmth comes
falseness disappears when the truth shines.
 Love is the true path to paradise.
 
 Love is the only true paradise. 
 
PROJECT 
Philosophic Community
 
 
 

van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 Love or the Islam?

Manifesto Against Terror found on the web

(Original)


After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism.

We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom,
equal opportunity and secular values for all.

The recent events, which occurred after the publication of drawings of Muhammed in European newspapers,
have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. This struggle will not be won by arms,
but in the ideological field. It is not a clash of civilisations nor an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing,
 but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.

Like all totalitarianisms, Islamism is nurtured by fears and frustrations. The hate preachers bet on these feelings
 in order to form battalions destined to impose a liberticidal and unegalitarian world. But we clearly and firmly state:
nothing, not even despair, justifies the choice of obscurantism, totalitarianism and hatred.
Islamism is a reactionary ideology which kills equality, freedom and secularism wherever it is present.
 Its success can only lead to a world of domination: man's domination of woman, the Islamists' domination of all the others.
 To counter this, we must assure universal rights to oppressed or discriminated people.

We reject « cultural relativism », which consists in accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived
of the right to equality, freedom and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions.
We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia",
an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatisation of its believers.

We plead for the universality of freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit may be exercised on all continents,
 against all abuses and all dogmas.

We appeal to democrats and free spirits of all countries that our century should be one of Enlightenment, not of obscurantism.

van Chapman Philosophic Community project


Love or the Islam:  
Conclusion of the  Dialogue with Erci:





 

What I try to say to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
  One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
 nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
  by cutting off his head.
 

  
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 
Conclusion dialogue with Erci: 

 
Because you were so proud of yourself, dear Erci,
that your belief should rule the world,
 I thought : how could you mind if your face was revealed to people?
 But I was wrong. Please forgive me;
I thought only the women in the Islam were supposed to be veiled.
 
If in a combat for supremacy, that one belief alone should rule the world,
one belief would terminate the other beliefs by tyranny and slaughter of people
rather than by the clear light of love and truth,
all that will be left in this world is a belief without love.
 
What are you waiting for to see this? For the Last Judgement day?
 Don’t say poor Islam! It can tell you to discriminate people according to their belief,
crucify prisoners, chop off the fingers and slaughter people,
and even stone women to death but it cannot even take a critic!

And you?

 
Neither you nor I, nor a prophet nor a God
 are worthy without love.
 
 
‘The God of a petty mind is a petty God’
(As Krishnamurti once said.)
 


 
LOVE IS ONE,
BELIEFS ARE MANY.
 
 A terror-free spring time!


Answer to the threat of a Muslim

It is not ‘Peace upon Mohammed’ alone you should say,
 but 'Peace between all people!


Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:45 AM
This is for your brother, Erci:
If you say God is the Most Compassionate, obviously those who refrain completely from hate,
 cruelty and violence towards others are closer to God than someone,
for example who is believes in the Islam but is and for that reason
 is full of prejudice and hate for others, because they who may be critical of the violence in the Koran.

Dear Erci, please give this to your brother:
Dear Muslim,
 if I am the devil to your belief because I defend love, what for a belief is yours?
I only ask you to be a friend, and from a friend, I ask sincerity:

 Your God has prohibited you to be my friend, if I am a Christian or a Jew or an unbeliever.

Does it make sense to you ?:
 It is not my God but yours, who obliges men to believe
that he is the Most Compassionate One, or he might chops off their head and finger tips !!.


No one is wise nor worthy by violating, hating and butchering others.
Sure not for the sake of God!

Neither you nor I, nor a prophet nor a God are worthy without love.
 
If you want to over- power me and crush me, if your arm is stronger than mine,
because you have no intelligent argument against what I say, you can do it,
but you cannot kill my friendship, my love.
 
By discriminating people who believe in indiscriminate love,
 not in Allah,  Mohammed’s version of God,
and punishing rightful criticism with murder and hate,
you only prove to the world that you, your prophet, your Islam and your God,
are not be as pure, compassionate or intelligent as they pretend to be.
As pure, compassionate or as intelligent as the justice of love.
 
You can aggress me, in the name of your prophet or God or Islam
 for saying the truth you do not dare to say,
but you will only prove me right.
 
You can silence me, if you kill me,
 but you cannot silence the truth of what I am saying.

 
What true friend, true prophet, or true God
 would have you offer your life
 and throw your consciousness away to a mere thought,
 a mere belief of what love is,
 and then silence, murder the truth ?


 
Your friend in the love for truth. Geraldine van Chapman





 
van Chapman Philosophic Community project www.naturestudio.net
Love or the Islam:  
Conclusion of the  Dialogue with Erci
 
 
 
 
 
What I try to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
 One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
 by cutting off his head. 
 
van Chapman, Philosophic Community project 
www.naturestudio.net
 
Dialogue with Erci, Conclusion (?)
 April 2006 Love does not mean not to see the faults in another, nor does someone need to be perfect to deserve love.
The first and most important reason I reject any form of relationship based on unquestioning obedience, is its inability for self criticism.
 After a dialogue with a Turkish I call  Erci I wonder if all truly intelligent reasoning with a fanatic Muslim is out of the question.
 If in a discussion with Muslims about their religion, one will always feel manipulated in every way to believe in the superiority of the Islam over other beliefs, 
and if what remains is to listen to an endless praise of the purity of the Islam and of the Muslims, endless self defence and justification or denial,
even in its discrimination against women, against free thinkers, against people with any other teaching, any other belief, justification or denial even in regards
 to the barbaric practices of war written in the Koran.
-‘ I have given myself up to the Islam’, explained Erci. But as to myself, I cannot digest the barbaric foundations of butchers of men. There is only the truth,
that which is, and the thoughts, the beliefs, wrong or right, about the truth, about what is. It would be absurd to give oneself to one single thought, or belief,
and tell the truth itself to be quiet.  
If one wants to over- power and dominate the other, there is no true spiritual community between two consciousnesses, but the oppression, and the suppression of consciousness. 
 Love alone opens the mind for the truth. In love there is no compulsion in belief. How can it be?
If anyone pretends to be God, or the prophet or the word of God, or to know everything, then questioning must be allowed, or there is no true relationship,
but tyranny and subservience to tyranny.When the freedom to see for oneself is denied, when critical self awareness is not allowed, when someone or a group of people
 pretends to be  more important than another, person or group, there is no real love.
 
One cannot have true peace or true love by doing injustice to others, discriminating others a priori,
because they don't belong to our group. When compulsory unquestioning obedience replaces the freedom to seek mutual understanding, evolution stops, and truth, love,
 beauty and peace in a relationship fades away.
 
In our old monotheistic traditions men were unquestioning to their words of God, however ruthless and cruel, as men have considered women inferior to their unquestionable selves,
 however ruthless and cruel they might have been...But the truth is that this pretentiousness does not have fundament because we in essence are all one.
 
Women would not be considered inferior to man if there were true men, if they found true love.
Women would also not submit to discrimination, if they were true to themselves.
 
And people would not be enslaved to the words of another, or the words of a book, if there was true love. Consciousness is consciousness, in whatever body or form it may take.
 Pretentiousness is the arrogance of pretentiousness, in whatever form it takes.
 Love does not mean not to see the faults in another, nor does someone need to be perfect to deserve love.

In a system of authority and subservience, unlike a meeting in mutual respect, one is the 'perfect 'one, the all powerful, who knows all better than another,
and the other, the one who may not question him.
 
In a true relationship, the master is love itself, truth itself, and no one is the slave. 
Men would not have created and adored a God who violates, slaughters and tyrannises people ,physically as psychologically, if in the relation between men
 there was not the bestial will of man to dominate over the women and over another physically as psychologically.
Physical, sexual, emotional or mental differences would not be so important, if there was true love, if there was spiritual awareness.

If there was love, or spiritual consciousness, all the external norms and forms, all superficial rules of old customs and traditions would not be so important.
There would be peace between humans of all backgrounds, of all religious origins, of all races and places of the Earth or Universe,  if the quality of the heart
and the purity in the eyes were more important than someone's rank, the dress or the head shall.

 
Your friend in the love for truth,
 

 
 
 


 
 
There is only the truth, what is, and the consciousness,
 the love, which can see it,
 or the unconsciousness,
 which can also be the infinite thoughts,
 or beliefs, about the truth, about what is.

Thoughts or beliefs can conflict with what is and with each other.
If you chose for a belief rather than Love, you chose not to see what is.
You may chose for conflict and not clarity and peace.
 
A communion of thought or belief does not mean a communion of consciousness ,
a spiritual communion or love.
One may have a moment of consciousness or a communion of consciousness,
 no belief and no thoughts about what is are necessary for a spiritual consciousness to be,
nor for the existence of a communion of spiritual consciousness.
Therefore from a spiritual viewpoint, there is no discrimination possible between a believers and an unbeliever,
as the Koran or religion like the Islam preach.
 
 
If you would chose the Islam (who tells you even to murder for a belief,) rather than love,
(who tells you that hateful and criminal self defence has nothing to do with God nor the love for the truth,


I say to you and your prophet and your God,
 if in accordance to the pattern of your belief, you would want to crush or kill a friend
for a critic on your belief, for saying that love is more just than the God of your belief,
you would prove his accusation to be just,
you would confirm the truth of what this friend is saying.
 
'Love your enemies' the teaching of Jesus, is one of the most revolutionary teachings in Bible,
and is not his invention. It is a spiritual perception, a deep understanding of our nature
the wisdom of the ages one can trace back to Buddha, and Lao Tzu,
and still not be a slave of their words.
 
What true prophet, what true God would have you throw your life and consciousness away
to a mere thought, a mere belief about the truth, and then silence truth ?
The moment a person or prophet or God does not win through the power of the truth
but through the love for power, even at the cost of truth, he is a spiritually fallen.

 If you chose a belief rather than love,
you rejected the awareness of what is:
Love is the awareness of what is.
 
It is not ‘Peace upon Mohammed’ alone you should say,
 but 'Peace between all people!
 
 
From a discussion in the aula of the University of Gent in the middle of March 2006,
with the representatives of the Vlaams Belang and the Islam.

The Muslim representative complained about the 'Eigen volk eerst.' policy of the Vlaams Belang,
complaining, in fact, of an aspect in which the Vlaams Belang and the Islam are quite similar:
In several verses of the Koran it is understood the policy 'OWN PEOPLE FIRST'
be kind to believers and hard to unbelievers.

During the discussion panel in the Aula  I contributed with one question:
 'If it is true that Mohammed has murdered someone for criticizing how he
made war against non -Muslims, is a good Muslim supposed to justify it?'
A young Muslim from Gent, Erci, (who had taken me to the meeting at the University)
 told me he could not justify it, but he did not believe in the truth story.

(So it is a young man with a sense of justice. until he opens the Koran.
Then he stops reasoning, he justifies anything in it.)
This is one of the Stories.
 
 Wikipedia
Asma bint Marwan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search Asmā bint Marwān (Arabic
عصماء بنت مروان)
is a female poet who lived in Hijaz in medieval Arabia during the life of Muhammad.
 Her affair is first written in Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
 the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

The Siraat are one of the most important sources of information about the history of Islam, but are not necessarily authoritative.
Such passages as this and the Satanic Verses, for example, are some of the most contested issues in Islamic theology.
For all Muslims the Qur'an is the definitive explanation of historical, theological and social truths, and for the vast majority the Hadith,
or the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed and his companions, have secondary authority. The Hadith are categorized according to
verifiability and reliability using rules of transmission, or isnad. The Siraat do not fall under these strictures, and some Muslims
reject the following story as a fabrication.[1]
Poetry was the usual medium of political discourse in medieval Arabia and Asma Marwan wrote a politically charged poem against
Muhammad and his army; this poem was preserved in the Sira. Poetry, being the political medium of the time, could have a huge impact
on the political landscape. Muhammad decided to silence her by having her assassinated. This story is described in the Sira written by
Ibn Ishaq. Following is an excerpt from Alfred Guillaume's translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sira, describes that Muhammad commanded
one of his soldiers to murder Asma Marwan; the assassination squad is described as having murdered Asma with knives while she
was sleeping alongside her children.
From the Sirat Rasul Allah, by Ibn Ishaq
(A. Guillaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676:

"UMAYR B. ADIYY'S JOURNEY TO KILL ASMA D. MARWAN

"She was of B. Umayyya b. Zayd. When Abu Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection.
Abdullah b. al-Harith b. Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of B. Khatma called Yazid b. Zayd.
Blaming Islam and its followers she said:

"I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit and Auf and B. al-Khazraj. You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
One not of Murad or Madhhij. {1} Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by : And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?
" Hassan b. Thabit answered her: "Banu Wa'il and B. Waqif and Khatma Are inferior to B. al-Khazrahj.
When she called for folly woe to her in her weeping, For death is coming.
She stirred up a man of glorious origin, Noble in his going out and in his coming in.
 Before midnight he dyed her in her blood And incurred no guilt thereby."

When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?
" Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her.
 In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said,
"You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!
" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said,
"Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [girl] Marwan.
She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan,
O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting.
" That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma;
 before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact.
The first of them to accept Islam was Umayr b. Adiy who was called the "Reader",
and Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit.

 The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma
became Muslims because they feared for their lives."

{1} The note reads "Two tribes of Yamani origin."


Another source that described the death of Asma bint Marwan:

From Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31.
"SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd,
when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah.
Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him.
She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house.
Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind,
and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back.
Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?
" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word
that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).
Following is a description of this assassination (as well as the assination of Abu 'Afak by the contemporary Muslim scholar of Islam, Ali Dashti.
From Ali Dashti's 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad (3) page 100:
"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr
 at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess,
 Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
 
Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
 the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

( "The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma
became Muslims because they feared for their lives."
from the history of Mohammed.
Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
 the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

see also letter from humanists in www.naturestudio.net
or copy and search in Google: Call to the Muslims from a group of free thinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origin
 
 

 
 
 
van Chapman, Philosophic Community project 
A terror-free spring time!  

 
What I try to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
 One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
 by cutting off his head. 
 


 
Love or the Islam:  Conclusion of the  Dialogue with Erci 26 April
The downfall of Islamic terrorism.
 One does NOT need fire weapons to dismount the basis on which Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism is based on. Only pure spiritual insight of love, logic and reason are needed.
If we understand the contradictions in the Koran, unveil its unwise discriminations and tyrannical patterns of relationship, the pretence that the Koran is the perfect and unquestionable word of God falls apart.
 A good Muslim may not see the injustices in the Islam, may not reason with his belief, because if he did, reason would win, and he would lose the belief. The Islam wants total power over another’s thoughts words and acts, by force of belief, not by reason, not by truth, not by love.

If no one may reason with their belief, what rests for Muslims to do, if they think they must rule the world?  In a dialogue or a philosophic debate, as I tried with this Muslim Erci, his solution  is to keep praising the beautiful sides of the Islam, denying, hiding the discriminations, the evil, the deceptions and butchery of people.
But if that fails, they can use the stupid argument of violence, to fight on the' muscle' level, through brutal force, as a terrorists. The totalitarian Islam, in its ambition to rule the world by unquestioning belief in its authority, justifies hate and torture and murder in the Koran, and lying and the most terrifying and disgusting means of self defence, because it is unable to question itself, to reason with itself, to over win the debate on the level of reason or love or right. So it is a bully way, not a way of wisdom nor of a gentleman.
 
On the power level Muslim Terrorists have found a tough opponent: Bush. That is why many Muslims we speak to like to blame it all on Bush. Even the faults of the Muslims themselves, the chaos of fratricide suicide bombing wars between Muslims themselves, between Muslims of different traditions, some might want to blame someone else for. But  Bush, as far as I know,  did not kill someone for protesting or criticising his belief as the history of Mohammed says he has killed, and Muslims have done, and still justify themselves in doing.
The  human rights abuses  and horrors of war of Bush’s violent war on terror is not written in the Constitution of America, and it does not pretend to be the word of God, as the most detailed horrors in the Koran have the pretence of being the Constitution of the Islamic state and the word of God. Bush’s war is his personal responsibility, and of those who followed his orders, through by the criticism of the majority of Americans he will be voted out of the government.

What Mohammed did wrong will not be criticized and will continue indefinitely, as long as the Islam will rule the mind and heart of one man. And only the reason of love will ever bring clarity to the mind of this man, and make of him a true peace maker and a man of peace.

Based on their original foundations, religious conflicts within the Muslims themselves should be far more bloody and violent and far more chaotic, as we are witnessing in Islamic countries like Iraq today, more terrible than the religious conflicts within the factions of Christianity, for physical violence is justified against unbelievers in the Koran, while it is prohibited by Jesus in the New testament.
The moment a person, or a prophet or God, does not win through the power of love and truth but through the love for power, at the cost of truth and love, he has lost the justice, even if he rules over others.
 Because to fight for the Islam is a command in the Koran, unquestioning belief, lying, terror, violence, oppression and cover up, are justified in the Koran itself as self defence. The obscure argument of terrorists.

Because at a certain stage, in Mohammed's life, the power the Islam to secure the belief, the land and a state became more important than sincerity or truth, as it continues to happen to his followers today, the Islam has fallen in the trap of vanity of power, the trap of the love of power,  and this was and continues to be the spiritual downfall of the Islam.  

The moment Mohammed decided to make of the Islam a State, with a property which must be defended at all costs, with the dirty and disgusting strategies of war, the pretended holiness of his land reveals itself to be an illusion. (When praying for the death of their enemies’ like a blind leader of Hamas did, substitutes praying for the happiness and the clarity of all beings, as Buddhists , for example, wish for, terrorism has replaced the true religion and the perception of the oneness of all consciousness.)
 Love gives us freedom to see for ourselves. Denying us the  freedom to see for ourselves, the Islam proves that it is in conflict with love. If it must rule over you and the world but you may not reason with it, question it or criticise it, it is the Islam itself that creates the need for violence.
But what good is to win the whole Earth but lose one’s soul, one’s love?



 





Here Erci, because you complained, if it makes any difference to you,
now the letter type of your text in this letter is larger than that in mine!
 April 26 A
(Uncorrected letter from Erci)
-Erci: Conclusion of The Dialoque with Chapwoman who thinks she believes in Love.
Chapwoman Who thinks she believes in Loves is now more then 3 jears insuLting, humiliating and attacking the isLam in a very crueL way.
(Answer from Geraldine 
Poor Islam, it can tell you to crucify prisoners, slaughter people, stone women to death but cannot even take a critic!


-Erci: How Can a woman who believes in Love only talk about  hate, jealousy, arrogance and terrorisme.
I invited her many times to talk about love, but the only thing she does is attacking the isLam. Were is the Love you  believe in Chapwoman???????

Show me that love you believe, in youre words and youre deads.  TiLL now i didnt see nothing of iT.
The Love that she means is insulTing other religions, she even called me an idiote.
WeL Dear Chapwoman, In The Time of The profet Mohammed ( peace be upon him) there were also peopLe
 like you and look where there now, The aLL lost like you wiLL. 
You dont live in peace and you didnt find happyness in youre life, so thats why you want to interfeare in other  lifes.

(Answer from Geraldine: If you imagine I am unhappy in my life and have no love in my heart,  you are wrong.
If you think I have no friendship for you, even when I find you stupid, for accepting lapidation and so on , you are wrong.)

Erci Live youre life how you think you will and leave me alLone, cause you dont sighn the love that you supposto believe in.
 I believe that a person whos full of love has to sighn it out but that is missing with you. Where is the Light of that
love in you as we may believe that you have find the love. Where is iT i cant see the light of love on you ????,
No One can win the TruTh Dont ForgeT That Chapwoman.
Now Dear Chapwoman.
Go To the attackers and teach them love, not to the defenders wich they have a right to self defence.
In other words teach yourself what love is !!!! Cause youre the one who attacks me i never attackted you.
So teach yourself what Love is Chapwoman !!!
 Go to the one who attack the isLam and teach them first what love is and tell them that respect is a part of love
and that respect starts with selfrespect.
But start first with youreself cause youre the opposite of love, I never had a lovelely mail of you the only thing
that you want to do is argu with me.

(Answer from Geraldine: 
The lovely mail you said you got about the sparrows from my friend it was I who sent to you.)

-Erci: If i get any mail of you again whos with insultis about the isLam, i will do a coplaine to the police.
Leave me and the IsLam and let us live in peace and love.

(Answer from Geraldine 
Poor you, you say you can chop off the fingers of people as it is ordered in the Koran and that stoning is the will of god and you cannot even take a critic!)

-Erci: I wish you the best in youre surch to Love and happyness, cause it seems that you didnt
find that yet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Answer me one thing, Who has created The opposite of love is hate: , and so on?
Is That Created By The Love you believe in or noT ?? just yes or no .
Th you.

(Answer from Geraldine: What makes a man stone a person to death in nameof the 'Most Compassionate' Allah is stupidity.
it is not justice or love but jealousy, arrogance, tyranny, prejudice, discrimination, inequality, slavery, demand for blind obedience,
blind belief even in murder, pretentiousness, vanity, pride and insensitivity.)
-the opposite of justice and love. All this and your stupidity in accepting it as just, the hate and threats of your brother towards
 me when he does not even know me, may not have been created by your belief, but the justification of it was your Belief.
The opposite of love comes from spiritual ignorance,
a false thought or false belief that we are this form (of a man or woman )and not the consciousness itself. ) G.
 
 



Answer from Geraldine 

27 April Dear Erci, don’t get me wrong.
correction of a typing fault
what I meant to say is : One does not need fire weapons to dismount the basis on which Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is based on.
 Only pure spiritual insight of love, logic and reason are needed.
I can take critic, and hate and I am still friendly, though I am sorry to frustrate your conquering Muslim ambition to rule the world,
but no one will rule over my mind and reason and heart. Love does not demand of another to be perfect in order to love.


This morning the enthusiastic blackbird woke me with a beautiful song. I am happy in my light, and full of gratitude for love 
and the beauty of nature in my heart, but it is natural that between you and me we must remove great obstacles to
understanding before all goes smooth and easy between us.



 



From: Erci

 April 27, 2006 3:44 PM

SeLamun ALeykum GeraLdine.

The Truth comes from ALLah : When the Quran is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy. " Quran 7:204
2:132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of ISLAM."
2:133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said:
"We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in ISLAM)."
2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus,
and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in ISLAM)."
2:208 O ye who believe! Enter into ISLAM whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
3:19 The Religion before Allah is ISLAM (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other,
after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
3:67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is ISLAM), and he joined not gods with Allah.
3:80 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in ISLAM)?
3:83 Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted ISLAM),
and to Him shall they all be brought back.
3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses,
Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in ISLAM)."
3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than ISLAM (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).


I Asked you who Created the opposite of love i didnt asked you from where did it come ?? Read the question ;)
You answerd me from where it comes im asking who has created it ?





 
 



Answer from Geraldine.
The rest of the answer to your question : the opposite of love comes from spiritual ignorance,
a false thought or false belief that we are this form of a man or woman and not the consciousness
we are the conscious ness the One consciousness of all dressed in a particular body or form. 


'The true self is eternal and of infinite love.
 It will be revealed when the false thought is destroyed.'
These words come from a Hindu yogi who has nothing to do with the traditions you talk about,
yet, to me he said everything, even answered your question who created evil or the opposite of love.

Truth comes from our true self, since the consciousness of love is one in any form it may temporarily
manifest itself. and the false thought created the rest, that is, the illusion, the opposite of love,
so no person created the opposite of love, only ignorance caused by ego based wrong perception.
Ego itself is an illusion, the illusion that we are different (because I believe and the other does not .(Islam).
There is no difference at all between a believer and an unbeliever.
In essence we are all one, in essence all forms of the ONE consciousness of love, but divided by thoughts
and beliefs. I say this because I see it is so, not for any other reason, not because I believe in anyone book
or master to be the word of God or so.
 By the way I sent our dialogue to the Premier Verhofstadt and his brother by a friend of mine.
 
We will see if he understands my point of view better than you do.

Take care and be in peace. In the love for truth, G.






QUESTION BY GERALDINE
 Do I take your photo out of my archive, Erci ?I did take away your photo from the web site because you asked me.
I did not  send it to Verhofstad , after all, (I deleted it from the e mail), but I did show it to friends of mine
and some other people, because it is in my Computer and CD archives now.

(1 May ) -Erci : Hey there. Yes Take my photo out of youre archive.
If i want to talk publicLy i will do that when i want it. Its not fair to use a private conversation and to publish it.
Spions do that wich is not fair.
One day i will talk to public and many people more but ill deside when i do that you cant to that in my place .
Th you.

 Answer 1 may Geraldine;
By the way Erci , the lovely mail you said you got about the sparrows from my friend it was I who sent to you.
 
I always sent you the copy of what I published on the web, you were aware of it, all this time.
 but only now when you have no more intelligent argument against what I say, you are complaining.
 
 I will erase the photos in my archive, and I can also say to those  who I gave a copy of my CD archives
 that you do not want to show your photo.)


 29 april
Dear Erci
If you want to talk about love, 
first you have to learn neither to hide yourself nor to hide the truth, in self defence.
First you must consider the truth more important than your ego, than your belief.
Loving has to do with seeing what is, not in justifying everything in yourself out of self defence,
or justifying everything in any a person or book, as you are taught to do in your religion.

You wanted to hide the ugly sides of the Islam, in defence of it.
The butchery, the discrimination of people for their belief, the real threat of terrorism,
and bloody wars, in the core of your Koran.
When you could not hide it any more, because I showed you I could see it, then you justified it.

Then, you said you are ready to slaughter people as it is ordered in the Koran,
and even that stoning of people in the Koran is justified as the will of God, what is madness to think so.

 You want to hide your brother
 (I may not 'speak bad of him' by telling the Imam that he has life threatened me with hate (for criticising the Islam ?).

You want me to hide from the things you said to me and even threatened me if I reveal your true identity.
Now you give me a problem because I have already shown the photo I took of you to friends and other people.


I proposed an honest, open, public dialogue on the website, for the sake of truth and light and peace in the world.
In the meanwhile I discovered the truth: It is the Koran itself what supports discrimination of people, the terrorism of Lapidation,
butchery of people and bloody wars, not I. You mean it is I who I do not love a because I see it and criticise it??


Ercy, you said: 'No One can win the Truth Don't Forget that',
No, Erci, I disagree. The Truth always appears.

If you love yourself or the Islam more than the truth, do not take this dialogue with me.



At the door of the atelier 28 April Erci said:

'-Let us not speak any more about the Islam, let us now speak of love', asked him
-What was that you once told me about the evil that we do...?

-G-'The evil that is done to me does is not evil to me because it does not make me evil..
The evil I do to others is evil to me, because it makes me evil.'


I reminded him. and concluded, not giving up the debate :
-'So, to stone someone to death can only be evil to the one who stones the other...'


_'Ask Him', said Erci pointing upwards towards the sky.
 I said good by: '-I do not speak to books.'




 
 

 

30 April
 
To speak of love, we have to say what love is not.
For you it is Allah's will for men to stone a woman to death for a double spell ,
even if men may three, five double spell, marrying several women as in some old custom of Arabic societies.

It is not I who promote discrimination of women and discrimination of people because of belief but your book, thus, for you, your Allah.
It is not I who promote bloody war, terror and torture and even lying as self defence but your book, thus,
for you, Allah. So who is the most compassionate? Your Allah or I?

Rather than support an eye for an eye,
more bloody wars on terror, or terrorist self defence and discrimination I defend a civilized dialogue.
For that your brother hates me and would like to destroy me?

 
This I say to your billions of Muslims,I am not concerned with their numbers,
 I am not concerned with power of Allah  nor the power of anyone.
When I say this, I am concerned with Justice.

You can shout the name of Allah or Jehovah and wie dan ook.
(or of who you like). You can shout your head off.

The voice of love in my heart will speak louder.




 

 



 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
We cannot be with anyone nor with God when we hate,
whatever name you give to that God.

Only the beauty of love will stay. The rest will die.
 
THIS PAGE OF THE SITE IS BEING WORKED ON.

 
 
7 May
Here is an answer to the latest E mails I got most recently from Erci
Please give me some time to answer. I will answer in parts, but I will try to answer everything.
 
 


 

Erci: Hey There..  Isnt is Strange that PeopLe who believe in Love only talk about
Hiding, Killing, sToning, about racisme and hate and attacking other religions?

 Answer Geraldine:
It is because you condemn those things as I do but justify them if they are written in the Koran.
Then you say I have to respect your religion. It makes no sense to me!
 
 
 
 


Erci: Now why dont you put those things on youre site and send it to the Prime Minister.

Geraldine:  I always say the same thing over and over, do nothing but repeat to you what I mean.
 Mr; Verhofstad can reason. If you are not able to reason if you are stuck in getting offended on your behalf,
on behalf of Muslim, instead of seeing the obvious thing I am pointing out.

I am sure the premier and any sensible person sees it at once what I am saying to you and will be tired of this text because
I say always the same thing again and again and you do not want to admit  it or you do not get the point.
 
 the bloody Islamic jihad is indeed a stupid way to solve a religious or ideological or spiritual conflict.
You and other believers do not need to be offended if I criticise your thoughts, your beliefs.
We are neither our thoughts, nor our beliefs nor our egos.
We are the consciousness, though each one of us has an unique, individual body.

For a religion to preach the converting of all people of the earth  not through love and consciousness but through discrimination
of other religious forms,  forceful domination, and murderous war and imposition of its  own form of religion upon people
is to miss the point for which a religion was should be created, and to become a spiritually blinding force.

 
 
 
Erci: How you Called Mohammed (sav) the biggest Terrorist, That you Called God =
Allah the biggest Terrorist and that you even called me an idiot.


I repeat: said before that if Mohammed taught as the word of God, what is written in several translations of the Koran,
that believers may not be friends of Christians and Jews, and that they must fight the people until they are convert
to his religion, if he ordered even the persecuted in this way even those of other ideologies or beliefs who might be
non violent,truly peaceful, more compassionate, more ethical than himself, then he is the number one terrorist.

Do you still not understand something so simple?

I said or wanted to say is that if you believe God the most merciful told anyone to stone a woman
because it is written in a book you are (being) stupid.
And love and sincerity and humbleness are the friends of consciousness.
 
 
 
 



Erci: (…)‘Isnt it intresting that on youre site you only talk about the Islam and not the other religions.’

Geraldine: Send me a person from any belief that preaches hate, tyranny and violence against persons in the name of a religion or God
as the Islam does and  spiritual reason will prove him wrong.
 Send me a person from another religion for a debate and I will try to understand his religion.
 At the moment I am speaking to someone who seem to be a fanatic Muslim, you, Erci, so the dilema is
Love or the Islam?-.
 And it is quite a big heavy task  to have to clear it all to you when you do not want to understand.
 
 


 


Erci: How come Chapwoman you dont put the things you said on your website?
But you cut the bad things you saiying and only put the things you want to put on youre siTe.
I went on youre site and saw our conversation but the bad things you said arent there.
Im questioning if youre gonna put this on youre website too.

Geraldine:
 Dear Erci, The dialogue we had previously is very long and I have placed a synthesis of the last parts
it on the previous web page ‘Philosophic community’. Is that what you are missing? Look if you find there what you are missing.
I am interested in the content of our talk , not in writing in extension. If you like me to explain again some point
or something you felt offended by just send it to me. I will explain it again.

To publish the whole conversation from the start would be tiring for the reader who can understand me with just
a few words, because I say always the same things again and again, and you do not get it. And it would be hardly 
readable, since neither of us writes good English.
I am not so tied to a form.  I intend to publish the whole dialogue when I have time to edit and synthesize it.
You have it all in the E mails and printed material I sent to you and the people.
I may change a form of what I said before as I revise it but what I say is always the same, essentially.








Pride, hate, insincerity, love for power are the enemies and the corruption of pure spiritual consciousness,
Pride and the ego are enemies of spiritual self awareness. To deny this and refuse to see this as it happens
with the promoters of the Jihads and to follow the path of terrorism is the culmination of darkness and the complete
spiritual downfall of a religion .
The role of a true religion is not the discrimination of people according to differences  of belief
But  awakening the  spiritual awareness of the fundamental oneness of all consciousness.
The role of a true  religion  is not to defend the rigidity of its  form against that other religious forms,  
but to help all people of the earth  to unite in the universal spirit of love and spiritual awareness .


 
 love and sincerity and humbleness are the friends of consciousness.
Pride and the ego are due to the identification with the forms that separate or distinguishes us one from the other.


It makes no sense to say that because you are a man, you are better and closer to the heart of God than a woman
or that a woman must obey and may not argue with you because you know always better and so on…
if we all are the part of the one Eternal consciousness.
 

This is all a false thought, a false belief.
 Consciousness is consciousness, whether in a god or a man or a woman. Even in an animal
there is a form of cconsciousness exists.

A Religion is a form. It has an Ego. Have you ever noticed how a person, under the influence of a big ego becomes
unreasonable and untrue and violent towards others, unable to look at herself and be criticised?? Ego is not love.

 
 

Erci: Now Im gonna ask you a Question?
Why dont you go to the places where is war and hate and tell them what you trying to preach to me?
(…)Now go to the places they need you the most. Dont you think ??

Geraldine:  Perhaps through this dialogue on the web it can reach others will.
 Others who are in those Muslim countries solving their philosophic questions with blood baths!!
I hope you and your brother who threatened me are not that stupid.
 I rather stay where people can reason, and send my insights through the web to those who at least
 can read and understand, and be far from the masses of illiterate people who will follow their leaders to suicide and murder
in the name of your religion. But if you, who say is studying international law cannot follow my simple reasoning yet,
you also can profit from the light I give to you.

 
 


Erci What youre trying to do is to create violence and hate in a society where we find peace and respect for each other.
Youre trying to destroy this society !!

Geraldine: Read your Koran and don’t be blind to this fact:
It is your Koran what creates discriminating of people according to their belief.
that tells you not to question but to make war if someone questions.
If I question the justice of Lapidation you Muslims could take that as an attack on the Islam
 and if the Islam is attacked you have to fight a Jihad with violence and more stones
because you cannot argue with reason and a civilized dialogue.


You said to me when I was scandalised about toning that -It is the will of God.

 Do you mean you can even agree with lapidating a woman to death and I have to respect that,

What kind of relation is it when you cannot argue with a husband,
when you cannot argue with Mohammed?
It is domination, Ercy, not love.
But Mohammed has died long ago.
You may not and you cannot argue with a dead man.
You are in fact possessed only by his book, by his past words, by his past deeds.
Which may not be not what he is now, if his soul evolved and become more clear.

 
Can one divorce Mohammed's past and the Islam once you are in it ?
or are  you also going to be stoned for double spell?

 In Afghanistan one could be killed for divorcing the Islam out of love for Christ for example.
If that is the Islam,  then it is clear that it is possession and not love.


In some of his teachings, Jesus taught to forgive, not to stone people, though he was a Jew,
believed in the God of Abraham and so on, what I do not.

But he saw that love was greater than his father, greater than all rules,
he saw that the only rule was that we love each other
and not hate each other.
Is that why believers of Allah may not be friends of Christians?
Because Muslims justify hate and violence and want that belief in hate to be respected?
 


Geraldine writes still:
Your brother in his threats to me pronounced the name Islam, in such an devilish tone I will never forget: it was a dreadful sound,
full of hate for me because of my freedom to reason from the light in my heart.
For not agreeing with the pattern of relationship based on domination and submission.

You did not justify Mohammed for killing people for a criticind him , but you justify your Muslim brother if he killed me for
a sincere and justified critic in the way of relationship in the Islam???

What would someone win by killing anyway?

 If Allah cannot the reason with love but only impose with violence it is not intelligent, it is not Compassoinate.

If the Allah you believe in is not the perfection of justice and perfect love,
then it is just an empty idea or ego, without a consciousness.

If the Allah you believe in will not give light of understanding but will dominate by power and terror,
It is not living but only a thought, a belief, a fantasy of your mind.


If someone it will stay inaccessible and demand unquestionable and blind obedience to an inert thing, a book,
instead of the living consciousness of love in our hearts, then it is not God, it is not Love.

If the Allah you believe in cannot admit the injustices and contradictions we can see his words,
 
and will shut up your eyes for you not to see them, and will shut up your mouth for you not to tell them if you see them,
if the Allah you believe is not perfect justice and perfect love,

If it rules not through the love and light but hate and through power, it is the ego and not the consciousness.
Is not a living being, like the Consciousness, but an idea, a dead, inert thing, like a stone, without consciousness.

 and to bend five or more times a day and adore an inert thing like a stone,
to bow yourself every day from wherever you are in the world in the direction of a stone ,
or soeone with a heart of stone is Idolatry!
 
If Allah you believe in from the start kills of love and reason, for the sake of power,
then it is spiritually dead. If the Allah you believe in enslaves you to a book or a form or a name
deniying your spiritual awareness then it is not wisdom, it is not the way nor the Light.
(Spiritual Consciousness minds the heart of people, not the dress.)


- Erci: (…) I will check it out whether this conversation is on the site. Now im asking you why are you cutting out of our conversation
and only put the good things you sad and not the bad things, or is youre goal to come over as an angeL?
 
 
 
Geraldine writes still:
 If a woman has chosen another man than her husband, where is the love and the humbleness of her husband in denying
her the right to have her choice, in hating her or even killing her for it while giving himself the right to have other women?

This is possessiveness and not love. This is a common mistake humans do, to mix one with the other.
Love allows the freedom to the other to see for himself.
As I have seen, this was also Mohammed’s mistake: If no other belief is allowed in a Muslim family or state or holy city, that freedom does not exist.

 Mohammed’s Islam, ( for it is his and from no other), in the end is possessiveness, and not love.

Do you want to hide this and say a that the Islam is the kindest religion you know ?
Is this the form of Government or the rule Muslim terrorists will defend with suicide bombing?
You said to me if you have to chose between Love and the Koran,  you chose the Koran.
 You cannot  argue, cannot reason with the Koran.
You cannot ask me to respect a religion that does not and cannot reason to defend itself, so it must
defend itself through getting offended, violence and war.

 You cannot reason with anyone because the Koran with its violence as self defence is not reasonable.


In principle I am against the Jihad of your Islam and will always be.
 Between love and the Islam there is not even the need to chose:
The answer is evident as the light of the sun in a clear water.
The bloody Jihad in the Koran for the imposition of a belief is counter productive,  there is nothing holy in smashing someone’s
head rather than just bringing light into his understanding.
If you will write a book in the defence of the Islam you will only hide this truth, hide your face
or say it and show your real you,  your reasonable loving heart, your honest  face.
The Jihad of the Islam only proves the incapacity of its members to dialogue and reason with its ideological opponents, by reacting
to an honest and well founded critic on the Islam (such as the inequality between man and woman ), with hate and threats,
(as your brother did to me).
This is not the old questionable history of Mohammed this is present history. Even you were present in the auditorium when he did this.
And you do not want me to tell not to speak bad of people? Do you justify him?
 
The Islamic Jihad is an expression of this pride and ego identification with a religious form in a big scale.
It is an irrational and dangerous element in your religion, because the only true force that unites,
Religare in Italian or Latin means re –unite, is the spirit of love, not the form, not the body.
All bodies are different. The moment one creates a religious form, in the name of the spirit of love,
to defend this form against love itself , one frustrates from the very start the very purpose for which this form was created.
 
The fanatic bloody Islamic Jihadists or terrorists only work against their very purposes of divine rule of the world.  
There is nothing holy in oppressive rule.
 Islamic stoning slaughtering and terrorist Jihad, only demoralise the Islam before the eyes of all spiritually intelligent members of humanity,
as the Crusades and the Inquisition demoralized the Catholic Church.

By reacting with prejudice instead of true spiritual awareness, by reacting like fanatic presumptuous, arrogant, boasting, primitive,
unintelligent, merciless, murderous, suicidal, offended male beasts, in an unreasonable bloody war
in name of the Holy Spirit of wisdom or the Most Compassionate, the Jihad in the Koran of your medieval Mohammed
only proves to humanity the real face of the Islam that you want to hide.
We could be living in a more understanding and reasonable time than the middle ages or the time of Moses. And you want to go back?

One cannot make someone who is intelligent respect a belief through indiscriminate murder.
One cannot create a change of consciousness in people through brutal violence, but through enlightenment.
 


 
Geraldine writes still:
 My goal here in this philosophical dialogue on the web with you is to tell you and tall the Muslims in the world
and their prophet and God Allah that to discriminate and hate and kill innocent and good people or just anyone
in a senseless Jihad in defence a belief and in spite of the truth of love is not the way to change the people
or the world for the better,  but to enlighten people with indiscriminating love and patience and compassion.

Love is the true path to paradise. Love is the only true paradise.

 
 
Geraldine writes still:

I have put my photo in the web. I can face the whole world when I defend love.
I have put your photo once too t and sent it to you by mail and in a printed letter.
You did not object. That is why I thought I could let it there for all people,
I showed your photo and said to people I am proud of you that you are so brave to take this issue with me
when all the Turks I asked before denied in fear of discussing the subject.
in a public web site but I am sorry.. later on you asked me to take it away.
I have taken your photo immediately away from the web when you asked me to.
Now you even complained I use our private conversations and you feel used by me.
Then we will keep you anonym on the web site.
If you will demand me to publish our whole dialogue from the beginning it will be tiring to the reader because
I always say the same to you and you deny it, then I have the right to demand to publish your photo also.
But I will not. I will respect your will to hide your photo from the web site.

 If you cannot reason with me about the Islam, without all the hurt ego feelings
and anger, like your brother,
then send me someone who can reason with the Koran.

Send me someone who dares to show his or her face to the whole world
when he speaks on the web with me on this dilema.  Love or a Belief.
 
 
 
 Erci: The more i talk to you the more the truth comes out about you that your goal
is to fight a cold war against the Islam(...)
: Geraldine writes still:
You said to me in relation to stoning in the Old testament and in the Islam that it was the will of God.
 Even if you only think of the children, what is better for them, to have another person as substitute
for a parent, or to see their mother stoned to death by their father for doing what he allows himself to do?
Has your stone hearted God blinded you ??

or simply terrified you to accept it against your heart?
What value has a prophet or a God without love?
Dear Erci, Why should we be offended if someone criticises our thoughts, our beliefs?
you and other believers do not need to be angry and offended.

We are neither our thoughts, nor our beliefs nor our egos. We are the consciousness.
Though each one of us has an unique, individual body.

For a religion to preach the conversion of all people of the earth
not through love and consciousness,
but through discrimination of other people,
imposition, forceful domination, and murderous war
 is to miss the point for which a religion should be created.
Is to become a spiritually blinding force.

I do not want bloody wars so I also do not want the Islam,
with its compulsory slaughter of sheep as an offer,
its slaughter of people, or stoning of women,
for having made a human fault or simply for having the faculty to reason.

I do not want to resort to unreasonable violence, I want to be free to reason.

This is what was called by Ghandi passive resistance,
this is the beautiful insight you liked.
'The evil other do to me does not really do me evil.
Only the harm I do to others not make me evil.'
***
 



Geraldine writes still
You asked me recently to teach myself love.
I am not afraid of what terrorists can do to me nor
of the hateful threats of your brother, if I speak the truth.

I am afraid of the injustice I do to others, if I allow a dictatorship
of any sort to rule the minds of all people of this beautiful planet Earth.

***
 
 


 

I could be the soul of Mohammed now talking to you,
being humble that he made faults,
trying to tell you this, to see for yourself,
instead of following blindly his past footsteps, even in his mistakes!

You are not a free man if you cannot see for yourself what is just and what is not.

All I say is that possessiveness and domination of another person is not love.
And I will continue saying it.

Possession and domination over someone's mind and body is a violation,
It is slavery, and even if we justify it as self defence, it is a not love.


 

***
Why be angry at me if I do not want to destroy you, but only a false thought??
I want to impede that you destroy yourself and others, as a suicide bomber.
If the angel did not appear in the story of Abraham, he would have killed his son.


What I am saying to you and to the fanatics of the Islam in this philosophic dialogue
is that love is the voice of the Angel.

Darkness vanishes, when the light comes in,
the ice melts, when the warmth comes
falseness disappears when the truth shines.

Perhaps I can publish your photo if I can make a better one...
I would still like to make a drawing of you for this Philosophic project.
You are like a child Erci, when you ask me:
And why are the things i said in very small letters and your text is in big letters?
OK. I can make the letters of my text smaller. Does it make any difference to what I say?


your friend in the love of truth.

 
 


ERCI: Hello there, Im telling you again, I dont believe in Love but Justice whos above Love.
Geraldine You are wrong, my friend, because love and justice are one.

if you chose for the Koran rather than love, you believe in inequality,
what is convenient for your male pride,
not for what is convenient for a woman,
or the five women the Islam permits you to possess as your inferiors
on the short leach of the head shall.
But if you do not give another person liberty, how can you be free yourself?
I repeat, possessiveness is not Love.
There is no justice without love.





******************************************************************************************************************************************
 
 
‘The God of a petty mind is a petty God’
(As Krishnamurti once said.)
 


 
LOVE IS ONE,
BELIEFS ARE MANY.
 
 A terror-free spring time!


 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
 
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
We cannot be with anyone nor with God when we hate,
whatever name you give to that God.

Only the beauty of love will stay. The rest will die.
 
THIS PAGE OF THE SITE IS BEING WORKED ON.

 




May 06 -Erci: Now Im gonna ask you a Question?

Why dont you go to the places where is war and hate and tell them what you trying to preach to me?
(…)Now go to the places they need you the most. Dont you think ??


-Geraldine: Perhaps through this dialogue on the web it can reach others.

Others who are in those Muslim countries solving their philosophic questions with blood baths!!






 To: Erci
May 06


You asked a lot, give me some time to answer you .
You asked me recently to teach myself love.
I am not afraid of what terrorists can do to me nor
of the hateful threats of your brother, if I speak the truth.

I am afraid of the injustice I do to others, if I allow a dictatorship
of any sort to rule the minds of all people of this beautiful planet Earth.

***




 
7 May
Here is an answer to the latest E mails I got most recently from Erci
Please give me some time to answer. I will answer in parts, but I will try to answer everything.
 
 

Erci: Hey There..  Isnt is Strange that PeopLe who believe in Love only talk about
Hiding, Killing, sToning, about racisme and hate and attacking other religions?

 Answer Geraldine:
It is because you condemn those things as I do but justify them if they are written in the Koran.
Then you say I have to respect your religion. It makes no sense to me!
 
 
Erci: Now why dont you put those things on youre site and send it to the Prime Minister.

Geraldine:  I always say the same thing over and over, do nothing but repeat to you what I mean.
 Mr; Verhofstad can reason. If you are not able to reason if you are stuck in getting offended on your behalf,
on behalf of Muslim, instead of seeing the obvious thing I am pointing out.

I am sure the premier and any sensible person sees it at once what I am saying to you and will be tired of this text because
I say always the same thing again and again and you do not want to admit  it or you do not get the point.
 
 the bloody Islamic jihad is indeed a stupid way to solve a religious or ideological or spiritual conflict.
You and other believers do not need to be offended if I criticise your thoughts, your beliefs.
We are neither our thoughts, nor our beliefs nor our egos.
We are the consciousness, though each one of us has an unique, individual body.

For a religion to preach the converting of all people of the earth  not through love and consciousness but through discrimination
of other religious forms,  forceful domination, and murderous war and imposition of its  own form of religion upon people
is to miss the point for which a religion was should be created, and to become a spiritually blinding force.

 
 
Erci: How you Called Mohammed (sav) the biggest Terrorist, That you Called God =
Allah the biggest Terrorist and that you even called me an idiot.


I repeat: said before that if Mohammed taught as the word of God, what is written in several translations of the Koran,
that believers may not be friends of Christians and Jews, and that they must fight the people until they are convert
to his religion, if he ordered even the persecuted in this way even those of other ideologies or beliefs who might be
non violent,truly peaceful, more compassionate, more ethical than himself, then he is the number one terrorist.

Do you still not understand something so simple?

I said or wanted to say is that if you believe God the most merciful told anyone to stone a woman
because it is written in a book you are (being) stupid.
And love and sincerity and humbleness are the friends of consciousness.
 

Erci: (…)‘Isnt it intresting that on youre site you only talk about the Islam and not the other religions.’

Geraldine: Send me a person from any belief that preaches hate, tyranny and violence against persons in the name of a religion or God
as the Islam does and  spiritual reason will prove him wrong.
 Send me a person from another religion for a debate and I will try to understand his religion.
 At the moment I am speaking to someone who seem to be a fanatic Muslim, you, Erci, so the dilema is
Love or the Islam?-.
 And it is quite a big heavy task  to have to clear it all to you when you do not want to understand.
 
 


Erci: How come Chapwoman you dont put the things you said on your website?
But you cut the bad things you saiying and only put the things you want to put on youre siTe.
I went on youre site and saw our conversation but the bad things you said arent there.
Im questioning if youre gonna put this on youre website too.

Geraldine:
 Dear Erci, The dialogue we had previously is very long and I have placed a synthesis of the last parts
it on the previous web page ‘Philosophic community’. Is that what you are missing? Look if you find there what you are missing.
I am interested in the content of our talk , not in writing in extension. If you like me to explain again some point
or something you felt offended by just send it to me. I will explain it again.

To publish the whole conversation from the start would be tiring for the reader who can understand me with just
a few words, because I say always the same things again and again, and you do not get it. And it would be hardly 
readable, since neither of us writes good English.
I am not so tied to a form.  I intend to publish the whole dialogue when I have time to edit and synthesize it.
You have it all in the E mails and printed material I sent to you and the people.
I may change a form of what I said before as I revise it but what I say is always the same, essentially.







Pride, hate, insincerity, love for power are the enemies and the corruption of pure spiritual consciousness,
Pride and the ego are enemies of spiritual self awareness. To deny this and refuse to see this as it happens
with the promoters of the Jihads and to follow the path of terrorism is the culmination of darkness and the complete
spiritual downfall of a religion .
The role of a true religion is not the discrimination of people according to differences  of belief
But  awakening the  spiritual awareness of the fundamental oneness of all consciousness.
The role of a true  religion  is not to defend the rigidity of its  form against that other religious forms,  
but to help all people of the earth  to unite in the universal spirit of love and spiritual awareness .


 
 love and sincerity and humbleness are the friends of consciousness.
Pride and the ego are due to the identification with the forms that separate or distinguishes us one from the other.


It makes no sense to say that because you are a man, you are better and closer to the heart of God than a woman
or that a woman must obey and may not argue with you because you know always better and so on…
if we all are the part of the one Eternal consciousness.
 

This is all a false thought, a false belief.
 Consciousness is consciousness, whether in a god or a man or a woman. Even in an animal
there is a form of cconsciousness exists.

A Religion is a form. It has an Ego. Have you ever noticed how a person, under the influence of a big ego becomes
unreasonable and untrue and violent towards others, unable to look at herself and be criticised?? Ego is not love.

 
 
(12 May) Our friends come very seldom to the atelier and my friend loves her silence
and does not like them just to drop in. They come on appointment.
I have no house. This house is from my friend.
I am travelling artist who happens to try to help a friend in Gent.

She is a vegetarian, she would not even kill an animal to eat, as it is not necessary.
 
It is in the end a question of laws, not religion.
Verhofstadt would not agree with all the laws of the Islam neither.
 
The law of the Islam is closer to the old testament, those of the United nations closer to Christianity.
Christian revolution brought about something new, forgiveness,
 
(the voice of the angel that asks you not to kill your son, even if Jehovah asked you to kill. Not to stone people.)



I made an appointment with you:
E mail me is you understand what I tried to say all this time.
 
The voice of reason based in the heart is in fact what I see as the way out of the violence in relationships
like skin heads who are racist and the Koran which is discriminating against non-believers.
 
The house is not open to unreasonable laws hate,
threats and forceful male dominance over women or over others.
Here we are equally valued.
 
Justice of love means that and reason is more important than the ego.
 





Erci: Now Im gonna ask you a Question?
Why dont you go to the places where is war and hate and tell them what you trying to preach to me?
(…)Now go to the places they need you the most. Dont you think ??

Geraldine:  Perhaps through this dialogue on the web it can reach others will.
 Others who are in those Muslim countries solving their philosophic questions with blood baths!!
I hope you and your brother who threatened me are not that stupid.
 I rather stay where people can reason, and send my insights through the web to those who at least
 can read and understand, and be far from the masses of illiterate people who will follow their leaders to suicide and murder
in the name of your religion. But if you, who say is studying international law cannot follow my simple reasoning yet,
you also can profit from the light I give to you.

 


Erci What youre trying to do is to create violence and hate in a society where we find peace and respect for each other.
Youre trying to destroy this society !!

Geraldine: Read your Koran and don’t be blind to this fact:
It is your Koran what creates discriminating of people according to their belief.
that tells you not to question but to make war if someone questions.
If I question the justice of Lapidation you Muslims could take that as an attack on the Islam
 and if the Islam is attacked you have to fight a Jihad with violence and more stones
because you cannot argue with reason and a civilized dialogue.


You said to me when I was scandalised about toning that -It is the will of God.

 Do you mean you can even agree with lapidating a woman to death and I have to respect that,

What kind of relation is it when you cannot argue with a husband,
when you cannot argue with Mohammed?
It is domination, Ercy, not love.
But Mohammed has died long ago.
You may not and you cannot argue with a dead man.
You are in fact possessed only by his book, by his past words, by his past deeds.
Which may not be not what he is now, if his soul evolved and become more clear.

 
Can one divorce Mohammed's past and the Islam once you are in it ?
or are  you also going to be stoned for double spell?

 In Afghanistan one could be killed for divorcing the Islam out of love for Christ for example.
If that is the Islam,  then it is clear that it is possession and not love.


In some of his teachings, Jesus taught to forgive, not to stone people, though he was a Jew,
believed in the God of Abraham and so on, what I do not.

But he saw that love was greater than his father, greater than all rules,
he saw that the only rule was that we love each other
and not hate each other.
Is that why believers of Allah may not be friends of Christians?
Because Muslims justify hate and violence and want that belief in hate to be respected?

 


Geraldine writes still:
Your brother in his threats to me pronounced the name Islam, in such an devilish tone I will never forget: it was a dreadful sound,
full of hate for me because of my freedom to reason from the light in my heart.
For not agreeing with the pattern of relationship based on domination and submission.

You did not justify Mohammed for killing people for a criticind him , but you justify your Muslim brother if he killed me for
a sincere and justified critic in the way of relationship in the Islam???

What would someone win by killing anyway?

 If Allah cannot the reason with love but only impose with violence it is not intelligent, it is not Compassoinate.

If the Allah you believe in is not the perfection of justice and perfect love,
then it is just an empty idea or ego, without a consciousness.

If the Allah you believe in will not give light of understanding but will dominate by power and terror,
It is not living but only a thought, a belief, a fantasy of your mind.


If someone it will stay inaccessible and demand unquestionable and blind obedience to an inert thing, a book,
instead of the living consciousness of love in our hearts, then it is not God, it is not Love.

If the Allah you believe in cannot admit the injustices and contradictions we can see his words,
 
and will shut up your eyes for you not to see them, and will shut up your mouth for you not to tell them if you see them,
if the Allah you believe is not perfect justice and perfect love,

If it rules not through the love and light but hate and through power, it is the ego and not the consciousness.
Is not a living being, like the Consciousness, but an idea, a dead, inert thing, like a stone, without consciousness.

 and to bend five or more times a day and adore an inert thing like a stone,
to bow yourself every day from wherever you are in the world in the direction of a stone ,
or soeone with a heart of stone is Idolatry!
 
If Allah you believe in from the start kills of love and reason, for the sake of power,
then it is spiritually dead. If the Allah you believe in enslaves you to a book or a form or a name
deniying your spiritual awareness then it is not wisdom, it is not the way nor the Light.
(Spiritual Consciousness minds the heart of people, not the dress.)


- Erci: (…) I will check it out whether this conversation is on the site. Now im asking you why are you cutting out of our conversation
and only put the good things you sad and not the bad things, or is youre goal to come over as an angeL?
 

 
Geraldine writes still:
 If a woman has chosen another man than her husband, where is the love and the humbleness of her husband in denying
her the right to have her choice, in hating her or even killing her for it while giving himself the right to have other women?

This is possessiveness and not love. This is a common mistake humans do, to mix one with the other.
Love allows the freedom to the other to see for himself.
As I have seen, this was also Mohammed’s mistake: If no other belief is allowed in a Muslim family or state or holy city, that freedom does not exist.

 Mohammed’s Islam, ( for it is his and from no other), in the end is possessiveness, and not love.

Do you want to hide this and say a that the Islam is the kindest religion you know ?
Is this the form of Government or the rule Muslim terrorists will defend with suicide bombing?
You said to me if you have to chose between Love and the Koran,  you chose the Koran.
 You cannot  argue, cannot reason with the Koran.
You cannot ask me to respect a religion that does not and cannot reason to defend itself, so it must
defend itself through getting offended, violence and war.

 You cannot reason with anyone because the Koran with its violence as self defence is not reasonable.


In principle I am against the Jihad of your Islam and will always be.
 Between love and the Islam there is not even the need to chose:
The answer is evident as the light of the sun in a clear water.
The bloody Jihad in the Koran for the imposition of a belief is counter productive,  there is nothing holy in smashing someone’s
head rather than just bringing light into his understanding.
If you will write a book in the defence of the Islam you will only hide this truth, hide your face
or say it and show your real you,  your reasonable loving heart, your honest  face.
The Jihad of the Islam only proves the incapacity of its members to dialogue and reason with its ideological opponents, by reacting
to an honest and well founded critic on the Islam (such as the inequality between man and woman ), with hate and threats,
(as your brother did to me).
This is not the old questionable history of Mohammed this is present history. Even you were present in the auditorium when he did this.
And you do not want me to tell not to speak bad of people? Do you justify him?
 
The Islamic Jihad is an expression of this pride and ego identification with a religious form in a big scale.
It is an irrational and dangerous element in your religion, because the only true force that unites,
Religare in Italian or Latin means re –unite, is the spirit of love, not the form, not the body.
All bodies are different. The moment one creates a religious form, in the name of the spirit of love,
to defend this form against love itself , one frustrates from the very start the very purpose for which this form was created.
 
The fanatic bloody Islamic Jihadists or terrorists only work against their very purposes of divine rule of the world.  
There is nothing holy in oppressive rule.
 Islamic stoning slaughtering and terrorist Jihad, only demoralise the Islam before the eyes of all spiritually intelligent members of humanity,
as the Crusades and the Inquisition demoralized the Catholic Church.

By reacting with prejudice instead of true spiritual awareness, by reacting like fanatic presumptuous, arrogant, boasting, primitive,
unintelligent, merciless, murderous, suicidal, offended male beasts, in an unreasonable bloody war
in name of the Holy Spirit of wisdom or the Most Compassionate, the Jihad in the Koran of your medieval Mohammed
only proves to humanity the real face of the Islam that you want to hide.
We could be living in a more understanding and reasonable time than the middle ages or the time of Moses. And you want to go back?

One cannot make someone who is intelligent respect a belief through indiscriminate murder.
One cannot create a change of consciousness in people through brutal violence, but through enlightenment.
 
 
Geraldine writes still:
 My goal here in this philosophical dialogue on the web with you is to tell you and tall the Muslims in the world
and their prophet and God Allah that to discriminate and hate and kill innocent and good people or just anyone
in a senseless Jihad in defence a belief and in spite of the truth of love is not the way to change the people
or the world for the better,  but to enlighten people with indiscriminating love and patience and compassion.

Love is the true path to paradise. Love is the only true paradise.

 
Geraldine writes still:

I have put my photo in the web. I can face the whole world when I defend love.
I have put your photo once too t and sent it to you by mail and in a printed letter.
You did not object. That is why I thought I could let it there for all people,
I showed your photo and said to people I am proud of you that you are so brave to take this issue with me
when all the Turks I asked before denied in fear of discussing the subject.
in a public web site but I am sorry.. later on you asked me to take it away.
I have taken your photo immediately away from the web when you asked me to.
Now you even complained I use our private conversations and you feel used by me.
Then we will keep you anonym on the web site.
If you will demand me to publish our whole dialogue from the beginning it will be tiring to the reader because
I always say the same to you and you deny it, then I have the right to demand to publish your photo also.
But I will not. I will respect your will to hide your photo from the web site.

 If you cannot reason with me about the Islam, without all the hurt ego feelings
and anger, like your brother,
then send me someone who can reason with the Koran.

Send me someone who dares to show his or her face to the whole world
when he speaks on the web with me on this dilema.  Love or a Belief.
 

 

 Erci: The more i talk to you the more the truth comes out about you that your goal
is to fight a cold war against the Islam(...)
: Geraldine writes still:
You said to me in relation to stoning in the Old testament and in the Islam that it was the will of God.
 Even if you only think of the children, what is better for them, to have another person as substitute
for a parent, or to see their mother stoned to death by their father for doing what he allows himself to do?
Has your stone hearted God blinded you ??

or simply terrified you to accept it against your heart?
What value has a prophet or a God without love?
Dear Erci, Why should we be offended if someone criticises our thoughts, our beliefs?
you and other believers do not need to be angry and offended.

We are neither our thoughts, nor our beliefs nor our egos. We are the consciousness.
Though each one of us has an unique, individual body.

For a religion to preach the conversion of all people of the earth
not through love and consciousness,
but through discrimination of other people,
imposition, forceful domination, and murderous war
 is to miss the point for which a religion should be created.
Is to become a spiritually blinding force.

I do not want bloody wars so I also do not want the Islam,
with its compulsory slaughter of sheep as an offer,
its slaughter of people, or stoning of women,
for having made a human fault or simply for having the faculty to reason.

I do not want to resort to unreasonable violence, I want to be free to reason.

This is what was called by Ghandi passive resistance,
this is the beautiful insight you liked.
'The evil other do to me does not really do me evil.
Only the harm I do to others not make me evil.'
***
 



Geraldine writes still
You asked me recently to teach myself love.
I am not afraid of what terrorists can do to me nor
of the hateful threats of your brother, if I speak the truth.

I am afraid of the injustice I do to others, if I allow a dictatorship
of any sort to rule the minds of all people of this beautiful planet Earth.

***
 

I could be the soul of Mohammed now talking to you,
being humble that he made faults,
trying to tell you this, to see for yourself,
instead of following blindly his past footsteps, even in his mistakes!

You are not a free man if you cannot see for yourself what is just and what is not.

All I say is that possessiveness and domination of another person is not love.
And I will continue saying it.

Possession and domination over someone's mind and body is a violation,
It is slavery, and even if we justify it as self defence, it is a not love.


 

***
Why be angry at me if I do not want to destroy you, but only a false thought??
I want to impede that you destroy yourself and others, as a suicide bomber.
If the angel did not appear in the story of Abraham, he would have killed his son.


What I am saying to you and to the fanatics of the Islam in this philosophic dialogue
is that love is the voice of the Angel.

Darkness vanishes, when the light comes in,
the ice melts, when the warmth comes
falseness disappears when the truth shines.

Perhaps I can publish your photo if I can make a better one...
I would still like to make a drawing of you for this Philosophic project.
You are like a child Erci, when you ask me:
And why are the things i said in very small letters and your text is in big letters?
OK. I can make the letters of my text smaller. Does it make any difference to what I say?


your friend in the love of truth.

 


ERCI: Hello there, Im telling you again, I dont believe in Love but Justice whos above Love.
Geraldine You are wrong, my friend, because love and justice are one.

if you chose for the Koran rather than love, you believe in inequality,
what is convenient for your male pride,
not for what is convenient for a woman,
or the five women the Islam permits you to possess as your inferiors
on the short leach of the head shall.
But if you do not give another person liberty, how can you be free yourself?
I repeat, possessiveness is not Love.
There is no justice without love.

********************************************************************************************************************************
 



(16May) Last E-mails to the Turkish youg man I call Erci
From Geraldine (van Chapman)
-You can have 6 million verses on love in the Koran,
if you tell me a man may beat his wife for any reason
or stone her for having another partner, (what men may have in your religion),
I do not believe in your doors always open for us.
And do not take it personally.Understand my way of reasoning,
change your fanatic mind and we will meet again.
Otherwise you are wasting your time trying to convince me
of the holiness of your machistic, lapidating laws.
I have finished our dialogue on the web.
Now give me the space to talk to others and to change the subject.






***
Why be angry at me if I do not want to destroy you, but only a false thought??
I want to impede that you destroy yourself and others, as a suicide bomber.
If the angel did not appear in the story of Abraham, he would have killed his son.


What I am saying to you and to the fanatics of the Islam in this philosophic dialogue
is that love is the voice of the Angel.

Darkness vanishes, when the light comes in,
the ice melts, when the warmth comes
falseness disappears when the truth shines.

Perhaps I can publish your photo if I can make a better one...
I would still like to make a drawing of you for this Philosophic project.
You are like a child Erci, when you ask me: And why are the things i said in very small letters and your text is in big letters?
OK. I can make the letters of my text smaller. Does it make any difference to what I say?





 



ERCI: Hello there, Im telling you again, I dont believe in Love but Justice whos above Love.
Geraldine You are wrong, my friend, because love and justice are one. There is no justice without love.

Your friend in the love of truth.




 
 Love or the Islam:  
Conclusion of the Dialogue with Erci:

 
 
 
 
 

*********************************************************************************************************************************




(16May) Last e mail to the Turkish youg man I call Erci
From Geraldine:
Erci, you can have 6 million verses on love in the Koran,
if you tell me a man may beat his wife for any reason
or stone her for having another partner, what men may have in your religion,
I do not believe in your doors always open for us.
And do not take it personally. Understand my way of reasoning,
change your fanatic mind and we will meet again.
Otherwise you are wasting your time trying to convince me
of the holiness of your machistic, lapidating laws..
I have finished our dialogue on the web.
Now give me the space to talk to others and to change the subject.



I opened the cage of your belief for you,
 but you have to come out by yourself.

 


Alexandra's free bird a canary I freed from his cage in Brazil some years ago.
A terror-free Spring time!
 
(23 July 2006)
Last E-mails to the Turkish young man I call Erci
Dear Erci

I opened the cage of your belief for you,
 but you have to come out by yourself.

Below  is the mail I sent you, May 12,  explaining why I stop the dialogue with you on the web
 and that people must come on appointment to the house of Myriam, no exception to you.
Did you not receive it?

And I furthered said that I do not believe in your house always open for me
(when you would butcher people, if is written in a book that Allah said,
 as you once repeated in the presence of the Imam and I).


The fact is that such absurd things are indeed written in the Koran, as we have shown,
and that is why I say that if it came from Mohammed that God commanded oppression and violence against people
 for not being Muslims, ( not believing men may have many wives and stone their  women if they have another man),  
when he said this, he became the number one terrorist.


One does not need to be strong to see this. To see what I wrote and said to you and the whole world.
But one must be clear enough to see that this,
that imposition of belief is not love 
and therefore  if this is the Islam ,
the Islam is not coherent with love. nor justice,
nor with ethics nor goodness nor God.


Until you do not understand this, and continue thinking that I am unloving or unreasonable
for placing love above any belief , please stay away.

This is the appointment I make with you.


To be a friend of someone is not to make oneself  blind to his faults
to be a friend of oneself is not to be endlessly on the self defence at the cost of the truth,
 at the cost of the justice and at the cost of love.
 Even Self defence of a belief does not justify that.

I come in peace and receive you in peace
if you agree that to impose an unquestioning belief is not the way of dialogue,  
not the way to real peace whatever that belief may be.
Dialogue in love is the only way of peace.

To impose an unquestionable belief is a violation of human rights and the way to war and hell.

And if the Koran is not coherent with the way of peace it is not holy.

If I meet you by chance on the street, I treat you as a friend,



I am not unloving when I say this to you,
and if you told to many people what I say here is no love,
you should go to them again and tell them the truth.

I am a friend in the love of truth not in self justification of the ego of someone or of any belief.







 
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 
 
Love or the Islam:  Love or belief ?
Conclusion of the  Dialogue with Erci:
 Love is the true path to paradise.
Love is the only true paradise.

 
What I try to say to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
  One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
 nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
  by cutting off his head.
van Chapman, Philosophic Community project 
www.naturestudio.net
 
 
A call for reckning
religion and the death penalty

 
’ All Islamic countries have demonstrated some degree of flexibility in the interpretation of Islamic law in these or other areas.
Yet, they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that the same approach may be undertaken with respect to the death penalty.
It appears that religion is little more than a pretext to justify a resort to harsh penalties that is driven by backward and repressive attitudes in the area of criminal law.
William Schabas is professor and chair of the department of law at the ‘

University of Quebec, Montreal.
Originally published in William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal 9:1 (December 2000): 223-237.

 



What I try to say to say to this Muslim, and his God Allah is:
  One does not clear someone’s consciousness,
 nor brings order into someone’s thoughts
  by cutting off his head.

 

 


(26 April 2006) Conclusion of the
 Dialogue with Erci:
 

You say your Allah is Great,
but I say true love is Greater!
Light and peace to you my friend.
 



 
 
 van Chapman Philosophic Community project
www.naturestudio.net
 
 
 Love is the true path to paradise.
Love is the only true paradise.

 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

van Chapman, Philosophic Community project 
www.naturestudio.net
 
 


 


 


Wishing all the best to you,

Your friend in the love for truth

Response on an anti Buddhist
and pro Islamic propaganda

(Islam and Buddhism (Harun Yahya ).




Erci, I did receive the film you sent me.
Just in case you are interested, here is my
response on an anti Buddhist and pro Islamic propaganda film.

The view expressed in this film in defence of Islam is like a communist anti Buddhist propaganda,
Of the  time the Maoists invaded Tibet and cowardly destroyed and killed
the helpless and peaceful monks to impose their social ‘justice’.

Wisdom says that divine justice is only love itself...

True union, light, peace, and reason does not exist outside of love;
whether you call yourself Buddhist, Christian, or a Muslim or something else.


Love should guide our desires.
Then there is no suppression but understanding.
To say one must suppress their desires is wrong religion,
and wrong Buddhism or wrong understanding of it.

One thing is an organised religion, another is the wisdom.
One must distinguish the two.


True Islam is based on the words of Mohammed. Not on superstitions.
True Buddhism is based on the words of Buddha, Not on superstitions.
Based on these words, we can compare the level of the ethics of Buddha and true Buddhists
with the level of ethics of Mohammed and true followers.
Buddha did not say ‘obey me’ or I will chastise you...

He said what he saw and told you to meditate, to see for yourself.
What did Mohammed really say in respect to that?

What is the punishment in the Islam for abandoning the Islam?
In some countries it is death penalty.

If the Islam brings reason, then you may argue with the Islam.
If you may not argue but must submit to the Islam,
then to say: ‘The Islam brings reason and peace’ like in this film, is false propaganda.

Prayers of Buddhists, as of true Christians, are for the enlightenment and well being of humanity,
 and they should love even their enemies.
Not as the prayers of Jihad’s, for the death of their enemies.

Superstitions exist in all cultures.

They are deplorable, if they dominate the minds of people.
But what right has the editor of this film, disrespectfully to suppose
that Buddhists pray to the stones of the statues of Buddha?

Buddhists do not pray more to the stones of statues
 than Muslims pray to the black stone in the centre of Mecca.

No one is supposing Muslims pray to the stones.
(Unless their personal belief be as heartless as a stone.).

Those outside the heart may only point with reason to the heart, as Buddha did,

never heartlessly and through violence imposing themselves as our master
because that is counter productive and incoherent with love itself, with true peace and reason.

To sacrifice animals is an integral part of Islam.
To inflict sufferings and even death on non believers
under the pretence of self defence is the dark,
fundamentalist part of the Koran, therefore of Islam.
This denial of Islam to evolve from the ‘ un eye for an eye’  law of the old testament
 is a backwardness in  Islam, in relation to Buddha’s and Christ’s teachings.

If Buddhists rather suffer deprivations in this life themselves than to kill or inflict suffering in animals,
 for example, and never impose their belief through violence, they have a much more reasonable attitude
and much more coherent with love than the Koran of Islam.

I don’t know  a  Muslim who will openly argue with anything in the Koran, even if it goes against reason.
Some might do it, but contradicting themselves, for they still claim the Koran to be unfailable.

Muslims believe in harming another in name of their belief.
True Buddhists and true Christians are more rational spiritually than those Muslims
who believe in killing and violence as the will of God, as it is written in the Koran.
The teaching in the Koran is neither consequent nor coherent with love if it does so.

Love your neighbour is social justice.

***********************************************************************


About reincarnation/

There is nothing eternal if it is not perfect.
Myth is to think we will live eternally in our imperfect ways and mentality.
What decays is the form.

What we created with our invisible thoughts and prayers
lives on to create another existence., .
If we have loved we are close to the Gods.
If we lived a life like animals we are closer to the animals.
That is what Buddhism preaches, and it makes sense.

Eternal punishment for one’s ignorance is total irrational education method.
The Old Testament, revived by Mohammed is irrational in this sense:
you have only one life to learn or you are banned from school forever!

What a teacher is their Creator God!

Buddha saw our true nature as light and love.
 Reincarnation for him meant another chance to repeat school of life;
 but also as the working of Karma.

Enlightenment means realising the truth inside, our true self,
 and that does not mean that we may not reincarnate
to serve and love and help others to find the light of love inside themselves.

The belief in reincarnation is the belief in an eternal heart,
a justice of love, which gives a sinner in this life a chance to another life
to learn the love and wisdom he has not learned in this life..

**********************************************************************

The eating habits of Buddhists only reflect their love for all living creatures.
Buddhism does not prohibit anything since Buddhism is not an imposed belief,
 only a recommendation not to cause suffering to others, not even animals.

Fruit or vegetables, by the way are acceptable foods if you can find them.
In Tibet it is more difficult. This film distorts the truth also in this respect.
What the law of Karma really means but it can be misunderstood is this:
Love says that if you harm another you are harming yourself.
The Buddha’s wisdom and precepts of non violence , from an ethical perspective,
in terms of social justice, are far superior to the Jihad of Mohammed, of the Islam.

This film has the stupid pretence of inverting the truth.
Salvation and enlightenment come from true love,
not from any one particular prophet or personality
or book or entity we might call God,
because where a particular prophet or master or book betrays love,
it is not the voice of the highest Justice, nor of the perfect and eternal life.

No personality I know is perfect.
Peace and happiness is achieved through following the reason enlightened by love,
not any individual personality we might believe to be the Creator, with all its contradictions.

‘Love will set you free’ is a famous saying in the Bible.
That is the true way, not this or that god or religion.

***
The terrible mistake which is made is not of Buddhism, in general,
as the film tries to affirm, but from the producer of this film,
whose vision of Buddhism is spiritually obtuse, unjust and blind.


This propaganda film is an  distasteful  materialistic, one sided, unintelligent view,
typical of the kind of self defence argument of a fanatic who will defend his belief at the cost of anyone,
 at the cost of sincerity, justice, and reason.

This film reflects a blunt misunderstanding of the spiritual richness
and wisdom of the ages in the tradition of Buddhism.

To love,  there is no difference between a theist or an atheist as the Islam thinks there is.
Love is indifferent to whether you think its wisdom is from God or you only see it as inner light.

Buddhists are not prejudiced against non- Buddhists,
as Muslims are  against non- believers of the Islam.

This alone is a proof of the superiority of understanding of the teachings of Buddhists.

If you are an atheist but you have love, you are closer to heaven
than a theist full of prejudice and hate.


Your friend in the love of truth.




 


 



Love or Belief?


PROJECT Philosophic Community

Extract end of a dialogue on the web with a Turkish Muslim
 www.naturestudio.net

 




 
You say your Allah is Great, but
I say true love is Greater!

Your friend in the love for truth

 www.naturestudio.net

 
 

(Message from van Chapman to a Turkish from Gent I will call Erci.

End of a long dialogue)

30 Sep 2006

To the Turkish Erci

Subject: Peace in music form sent by e mail

Peace in music form sent by e mail:

(A female duet from Dixit Dominus by Haendel)



 
-Answer from Erci

Th you For The Tunes, They Are reaLLy wonderfull
GreaTs and Peace






1 October
Answer from G.

Dear Erci, for the honest heart, the name we give to each other,
as the name we give to our master or leader or God is not important.
What matters is if we follow love or pride as our master or God.
What matters is what we agree to as being just and unjust.
What we do when we have a philosophical dialogue is to go to what really matters.
 
If we agree that someone is innocent if he is a non believer and it is terrorism to kill this person,
 than you have to admit that there are many terrorist sayings in the Koran.
That is why I said to you that the Islam is a contradiction.
and Allah can be used for justifying terrorism as well as compassion.
so to call him the most Compassionate is to lie, is 'Taqiya'.
 
The Most compassionate is rather Buddha, who can never be used for terrorism
That is why this film of propaganda for the Islam, against Buddhism is a lie, is 'Taqiya'.
 
Also more compassionate than Mohammed and Allah was Jesus who would rather be killed by those he came to save
than to take the sword in self defence and to kill them.

So do not come to me saying more bullshit.
there is a limit to my patience also.
 
A person or a religion who will not take any honest criticism
a person without self criticism is a victim the most stupid unjust vanity,
even if it boasts all the time about its victory.

Unfortunately this world is full of it, and people will have the master they chose.

I chose love, not Mohammed or Allah.
Point, other line.
 

By the way it is not I who am running from the truth.
It is you who will not have your photo and real name in this discussion.



Geraldine




***


 
Quote; a text from a link of: www.geocities.com/scimah/idols.htm
TAQIYYA (sometimes spelled TAQQIYYA or TAQIYA) is the duty of Muslims to lie about the beliefs,
methods and objectives of Islam to non-Muslims.
[TAQIYYA_1, TAQIYYA_2, TAQIYYA_3, TAQQIYA_4 , TAQIYA_5, TAQIYYA_6].
Taqiyya (bad faith, deceit, contempt for the truth, false promises, evasion, deceptive moderation
nd crocodile tears for terrorist victims) negates any attempt at interfaith dialogue between Islam and other belief systems,
because we infidels never know whether we're being told a pack of lies.
In Islam it's OK to lie and deceive Kafirs (infidels) because Islam is in a permanent state of war with all non-Muslims and deception
 is a legitimate tactic. The word or promise of a Muslim to a Kafir counts for nothing in the eyes of Allah.
So taqiyya means that the only time you can be sure that a Mullah is telling the truth is when he says he's lying!
"The Quranic doctrine of hatred against the unbelievers is as central to Islam as is the Sermon on the Mount to Christianity,
 or the Four Noble Truths to Buddhism.
Jihad  is a sacred duty whenever there is a chance of success against the Infidel ."
************
In answer to a video Erci sent to van Chapman with a film called “Islam and Buddhism (Harun Yahya)”


 



*********************
2 October
In love of truth


On the street, we met Erci. and as usual we greet each other in a warm and friendly way.

Erci tells a friend of mine, that the Islam is his conscious choice and complains about the attitude of those who only point out the negative in the Islam.
in a brief exchange they agreed that it was good to see the positive things of another, but it is important to tell the truth.


*************
 

Dear Erci, You ask respect for the Islam.
What is the respect in the Islam for the unbeliever, for the one who criticises it??
If you cannot answer this question and you cannot find me one imam who can, you have lost the discussion.



 

Erci has written: "the prophet MOHAMMED (peace un op Him) saw a dead dog and he could
see of all that dirt his beautiful white teeth.
IT means that the profet (out )of something dirty still could see positive things.
I believe in respect.
 (G- Answer): Do I have to look at the white teeth of Mohammed when I read this:
..".Mohammad allowed his followers to rape women captured in war. No reasonable person would accept
that having sex with women/girls captured as 'booty' after the murder of the males in their family and tribe
and their own enslavement, is consensual sex. The fact that Muhammad committed rape is evident from
 the stories of Rayhanah (Rihana), Mary the Coptic, Safiyah and Juwairiyah.***Koran 4:24 And all married
 women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you…… "
 
 Whose thinking is sick?  Tyranny is not love.




D"ear GeraLdine, IsLam with love will have the upperhand.
Even if you Like iT or not.
Now i ToLd you i Dont discusse about religions, pls respect that and stop stalking me about
 those subject. Dont make yourself look like a fool.
Im more and more thinking youre losing youre mind and going crazy.
Dont you get it, I DONT DISCUSSE ABOUT RELIGIONS. PLS LEAVE ME ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!
grrrrrrrr Damn , you are A sick person




 (Observation: a Quote; www.geocities.com/scimah/idols.htm/ MOON1
 
“Islam :    "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).
 "The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things."
(The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
 
 "The prophet was asked about things which he did not like,
and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92)
The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) "Allah has hated you...
[for] asking too many questions." (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591,
Bukhari's Hadith commenting on Muhammad’s reaction to hostile questioners.) “

23 Oct 2006


All tyrants ask respect for their rule and kill people who disagree.
Mohammed was not different.
Mohammed's barbaric holy war is discredited by anyone who is spiritually aware.

One does not solve philosophic questions
or questions of faith with violence but with wisdom alone.

 Islam can never be acceptable spiritually  
if one is aware of its utter barbaric aspects.

The Islam has lost to the wisdom of love
the moment the sword was taken to force anyone to the Islam.

It is because the Islam cannot win on the philosophical level
that it has to have the right hand by the use barbaric methods

and impose the belief by force where it is not accepted.  
And this is not love, nor justice nor the true victory.

You can try to adopt a loving way to convince people for the Islam,
but then you have to cover up the truth of the barbaric tyrannical sides of the Koran as if they were not there.

(If the pope says he respects the Islam, it might be because in the past the Church has also fallen
into the same trap of power as Mohammed during the time of the inquisition.
The pope himself believes in unquestioning obedience.)
I believe in reason and love, not in unquestioning obedience.


 
Your friend in the love of truth- van Chapman 
 www.naturestudio.net





24, 2006 Erci writes:
Dear UnbeLiever..
I ToLd you i dont discusse about religions, pLs Respect that.
IF you have any love inside of you, you will respect that.
Th you.
GreaTs .


October 25
From Geraldine
Dear Erci
we will stop the discussion if you ask it to me, and if we do not meet again. 
 
 
Let me tell you that it is out of love that I have tried to clear for you in my writings the source of the evil.
as I said,
The Islam has lost to the wisdom of love the moment the sword was taken to force anyone to the Islam.

One does not solve philosophic questions or questions of faith (such as between Shiites and Sunnis )
with violence but with wisdom alone.
 
(I saw last night a terrifying recent film taken in a hospital in Iraq by a doctor showing the victims
of the burgerorloog happening between Shiite and Sunni Muslims in Iraq.
The Muslims are blowing each other and themselves because they cannot question or discuss as I do
and see clear into what went wrong in religions. if you like more information you can go to the official report I send you ) attached.)

Good bye and thank you for having gone so far with me into the problem of conflict of beliefs..


(I have beautiful music for you, if you like);



your friend in the love for truth)





After writing this I went to the street to the pharmacy with a blind pigeon I found.
I met Erci by chance We greeted each other in a friendly way as usual.
I told him the bird was blind, could not fly and had to be adopted.
He was tender to the animal.

I told him I had music for him if he wanted.

 
He said I must stop with those stupid discussions.

My arguments were not stupid.
I repeated: one cannot solve a conflict of beliefs like between the Shiite and the Sunnis with violence,
but with dialogue.

If you stop the dialogue you stop the peace.




***************************************************************************
 



Oktober 26
 Erci, If you do not want to discuss do not make me more questions, do not provoke me
and then say you do not want me to argue with you any more. You want the upper hand
 in this discussion but you do not have it even if you have the last word.. because your reasoning is not clear.



 
Erci: October 25 Dear Unbeliever,
First you argue about verses in The Koran, now youre gonna mix that with politics.
You know there werent bombings till the US came there and Fucked up whole IRaQ.
Do you know who does these bommings? maybe CIA, mayba Mossad, You Think you know but nobody knows except the one who did that.
 Remember ALL Bommings Are Terrorism and Islam Denounces
Terrorisme like i ToLd you and like you saw. Still you want to ignore what you saw. Im TeLLing you Again Unbeliever.

Answer Geraldine 1.  Who first mixed himself with politics when he should have kept himself our of it is your Mohammed.
I do not agree war is a solution to terrorism as you know, that I have written to Bush.
I also do not believe in cutting hands off people as you Koran teaches. I find that cold blooded slaughter of people.
I will never believe in a prophet who can prescribe this as a punishnment.
 
 The Islam has lost to the wisdom of love the moment the sword was taken to force anyone to the Islam.
You want to hide the evidence of it in the Koran.
 
Jesus was more wise in this respect, because he never told someone to murder another for a belief as Mohammed did.
 If Christians do this they follow themselves not the Christ.
 
The moment you can force someone to believe with a sword the virtue is gone and terrorism is born.
I only force you to reason through my answers. Not more not less. And you are terrorized by it!

 
Erci:1. I Dont Discusse anything listen carefully ANNYTHING that is written in the HoLy Book The Qor'aan.
 If you have problems with verses in The Qor'aan Go and TaLK to the author of That BooK
 

Answer Geraldine1 The author of the Koran is dead, but reason and love is also dead if one may not question a book, question the reason and the love in it.

 
Erci:2. If You think and believe that dialoge is the solutions i agree on that, But not the dialoge that you are serving.
You are insulting, humiliating, stigmatizing isLam in a very cruel way and you expect love and respect from the other side.
 Im gonna ask you , Are you that stupid ?? To expect respect and love and dialogue while youre terrorized my religion for over 3 years now.
 
Dear unbeliever, i was the one that all the time treated you with respect even though you hurted me, even when you attacked me
over and over again psycologically. I always had respect for you and never closed my doors for you like you once did.
So unbiever you are claiming that my religion is bad and evil while i the one was that treethed you with patient and love for during all these years. 

 
Answer Geraldine2. I point out the terrorism in your Koran and you find I am terrorising you!
do not be a hypocrite and try to hide this aspect of your Koran and prohibit me to point it out for you.
No one I know understands how I can be so patient with you.
 
 
Erci: 3. Dear unbeliever, if you want love and respect you have to give first and then you will get it back. So im telling you again,
Stop attacking my religion which i believe with heart and soul. IF you dont understand islam thats youre problem not Mine.
 
Answer Geraldine 3.You mix respect for a person and respect for a thought or belief they might have.
You have a good heart and for that I respect you.
But I do not respect your blind fanaticism.
 
 
Erci:  4. I have never get deep in what you believe, unbeliever. Cause i respect what you believe and dont go deep in it,
 if someone wants they always can find something they dont agree with. But dear unbeliever im now hearing it from you for over 3 years
 and arent you tired telling me that crap over and over again, and asking me the same questions over and over again. I only see how hopeless you are.
A person who is strong doesnt do that losers do.
 
 
Answer Geraldine 4. That is the problem.
You do not go deep.
That is how the conflict of belief will go on forever, And a bloody one if it is with the Islam.
 To divide the world between believers and unbelievers was his way. Love does not do that.
I divide people between those who have a good and honest heart and those who by an illusion do not.
 
 
Erci:5. The only thing you will achieve is creating violence and hate between believers and unbelievers.
Now the question is: is that The Goal of someone who suppose to believe in Love ???
I dont Think So, So Stop this foolish crap and start practice that love that youre always talk about.
Cause youre deeds are the opposite of youre words.
Have fun with youre search for the truth but dont bother me again about verses in the Qor'aan
or from something you readed on internet written by one islam hater like you.
GreaTs


Answer Geraldine 5.

Do not invert the truth. Who promotes violence for the sake of a beliefs is your Koran..
 
Once you agreed that if Mohammed killed people for criticising him he was wrong.
Now do not come and say it is right if it is written in the Koran because then this what you are doing is foolish crap.
A noble person can rise above critics if they are unjust, and accept critics if they are just.
 
If someone is violent in response to critics
that is his fault, not mine.
Your friend in the love of the truth





From Erci 26 October

Dear unbeliever..

The unbelievers has lost the wisdom of love the momemt they toke the sword to the muslims.

If you think that the right of selfdefence that Allah Gave to the muslims is a lost of wisdom of love then youre more stupid then i thought.

Remember the words you said about: that justice love is, and that selfdefence justice is, so then you can conclude that selfdefence also an act of love is.

The right That Allah gave to the muslims to defend themself is cause he loves them.

Dear unbeliever, how come you dont have critics to the attacker but you only have critics to the defender?????

Shouldnt you talk about the attackers if you believe in live insid about the defenders ????

GreaTs



October 26

Answer Geraldine
Great Erci, it is the first time in my life I heard a Muslim say: Dear unbeliever.
 
Beating on women for disobedience to their husbands, sexual violation women of unbelievers in war time,  
stoning a women for giving herself to another man is not self defence
but an unthinkable crime of violation of humanity.
 
Unbelievers are not only humans but can be even more human than Muslims or Catholics.
 
But as a Muslim you have to agree with the Koran even if it goes against your consciousness.
 
That is why the Islam is a violation of Humanity.
There are more human, more compassionate ways
to bring light into the consciousness of people.
the way I do with you, through love and reason, for example.
It is respect for the individual consciousness that I miss in the Islam.
because I say this it does not mean that I do not respect believers.
 
I respect the goodness of someone's heart, not necessarily what someone believes in.
 
It has been rewarding to have a dialogue with you. Thank you.
 
 
 

 
 
Love, Geraldine
 

 
 
 

ERCI
January 16 2007



My Dear Friend Geraldine,

The Author of HoLy Qor'aan is not dead, hes the one That Gives Lives.

To understand The Qor'aan you must have a lot of wisdom.

ITs not that the Qor'aan lost the wisdom but the one who dont understand it has lost that Wisdom.

May ALLah The GreaTest Opens everyones Heart To understand the Qor'aan in his pure Way.

SeLamun ALaykum

 

 

 



Answer Geraldine:
There is no holy book.
Love alone is holy.

your friend in love of truth.
G.




ERCI/ January 16,


There is A hoLy BooK.

The HoLy Qor'aan is The Last Book Whos Send By ALLah The ALmighty.

And i ToLd you i Believe in ALLah not iin Love.

Im TeLLing you again, Dear Geraldina,
I Belileve In ALLah and his LasT profet (sav) and all the profets that came before Mohammed,
Jesus, Mozes, Ishaak, Jabuk, Abraham, Jahja etc....

Have A nice Day


 

 


Answer Geraldine January 17,

Believe whoever you like,
in essence there is just following love or following our ego.


It is unwise to discriminate people for their sex, or for their belief.
The Koran discriminates people for their sex and their belief
(we have already gone into that.), therefore not all in the Koran is wisdom.
If you cannot see this you are really blind.

From your friend in love of truth.

 

 





----- Original Message -----
From Erci
 January 17, 2007



My Dear Friend.

May ALLah open youre Heart Like He does To many people Everyday.

Islam is for every human being without discrimination of sex or nationality or color.

Islam is for everyone who sees the message that Came oF ALLah.

If you open youre heart to islam then ALLah will open your heart to.

SeLamun ALaykum We RahmeTuLLahi We Berekatu.



From: Geraldine
 
January 17, 2007



What you say is:
if we are willing to make discrimination between man and women,
between believers and unbelievers, as the Koran does in some verses,
(the first are more worthy than the second), then we are indiscriminately accepted by the Islam...
(Also Hitler accepted people of all nations who agreed to discriminate Jews as less worthy humans...)



 

You say your Allah is great, but
I say true love is greater!
 
Your friend in the love for truth

 

 

 


 
 
www.naturestudio.net

 

 




/
CONTINUES IN "PEACE PROJECTS"
 
PROJECT Philosophic Community

van Chapman  
www.naturestudio.net



Love or Belief?

 
(Message from van Chapman to a Turkish I will call Erci.

End of a long dialogue






 
Dear Erci, you ask respect for the Islam.
What is the respect in the Islam for the unbeliever, for the one who criticises it??

 You say always "-Peace unto him (Mohammed).
But we should say: "-Peace between all living creatures, believers or unbelievers

 



When you continue preaching to me your belief,
do not complain if I continue reasoning with it.

He who throws stones at a woman for choosing another partner than himself
is not the guardian of a woman but a slave keeper.
Not to speak when he is allowed to possess five women or more women.

An unethical man will follow even the devil himself
if it gives him the right to possess and enslave five or more women.

You might have pleasure to be a slave keeper
but in fact you are yourself a slave of your book.

When you chose tyranny as a pattern of relationship, you lose love.

When you lose love, you lose the most important: your freedom, your integrity and your true self.

Then you have to lie to yourself and others (Takiyya)
that your belief is more important than the goodness of the heart.

From your friend in the love of truth.



 

Geraldine to Erci

 

Dear Friend,

 

 

Between Kourosh (Cyrus,  Iran 2500 years ago),

and the Muslim Kolmeni from Iran today which do you chose?

 

Is Khomeini a good Muslim ?

Is a Shiia a Muslim or is a Sunni a Muslim?

 

 

You seem to have no problems with the violation of human rights and

violence against non believers, if it is written in the Koran.

 

Indeed I have a problem with the Koran, with the Islam,

though Muslims like you and Kholmeini do not.

 

Because Muslims themselves do not agree between themselves,

it is not I alone who have problems with the Islam .

 

 

Who decides who is a good Muslim? The Koran.

 

Who gives a  Muslim the pretence to judge another as unbeliever

and make war against him with violence? The Koran.

 

Where are the contradictions that tell you not to discriminate

to be tolerant to other beliefs

and that tell you to discriminate and not to be friends

and not tolerate those other beliefs?

In the Koran.

 

So where is the ignorance that makes Shiias kill brother Shiites?

In their common doctrine of Jihad or violence against unbelievers.: the Koran.

 

******************************************************************$

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/French/sina30308F.htm

**************************************************************************************

© copyright Permission is granted to translate and reproduce

the articles in this site. Please provide a link to the original page.




18 january / 07

Geraldine to Erci: Mohammed did not invent compassion for the poor.

Pious people in every culture feel the urge from love to help the poor..

 

But Mohammed’s violence against non-muslims, his discrimination against woman, that a woman is less valuable than a man

proves to me that in the end  he turned to be for power and not wisdom.

Here is the evidence you deny that the source of the problem is the Koran itself:



 

Answer from Eci

Go And Ask Khomeini if hes a Good muslim!

Dont ask me those stupid questions!!!

Omgg, there is nothing then violance coming out of youre mouht.

 

 

 

 

Geraldine to Erci:

Dear Erci

I just denounce the violence that comes from your ‘holy’ book.
Do not blame the mirror if you do not like what you se in it.

And I denounce the blind teachings of Muslims that agree

with the violence and discrimination of women and people for their belief in your ‘holy’ book.

What I meant to ask is: do you agree with what this person has said here?

Another quote from  www.faithfreedom.org :

 

"Khomeini's speech on the day
of celebration of the birth of Muhammad: 1981

************************************************************************

 

 19 Jan

 Dear GeraLdine,

I dont have time to read that now, im in the middle of my tests.

Afther my Tests when i have time ill read it.

GreaTs  

************************************************************

 

From Geraldine February 03, 2007

Dear Erci,

Hope you bare well in your exams.

 When you are finished tell me which of these two

correspond to the mind of the Koran : Cyrus or Kholmeini.

and which do you find more just.

 

Your philosophical friend,

 Geraldine

***************************************************************

31, 2007 11:47 PM

Subject: Fw: The sword of Jesus and the sword of Muhammad


 

Dear Erci Is this the work of decoding the spiritual message of the Bible? I still find justifying all at all costs not the right attitude. But you know I agree with the insight here.

love, Geraldine

 

 

Did Jesus instruct his followers to buy a sword? This superb, short article is well worth the read. Its conclusions differ somewhat from my article, for his says that it is possible that some early disciples may have carried swords for self-defense. This is a plausible interpretation, though the evidence is sparse. But the broader historical evidence states emphatically that the early Christians never waged a holy war on pagans who refused to convert or on civil authorities who persecuted them. They did not assassinate any opponent for any reason whatsoever, even for composing insult poetry. All of this, in contrast, Muhammad and his followers did, and the historical evidence on this is firm and full.

 

QUOTES FROM The sword of Jesus and the sword of Muhammad, A comparative study of Quran 8:12 and Luke 22:36

James M. Arlandson

 

'Jesus had at his disposal during his arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane more than twelve legions of angels, or more than 72,000, but he did not call on them to wage jihad on unbelievers (Matt. 26:53). Rather, he went to the cross and died a physical death in order to ransom the entire world from its sins.'

'To sum up our interpretation of Sura 8:12, then, this verse is one of many that are found in the context of physical warfare and bloodshed. Muhammad is promised the help of Muslim angels who put terror in the hearts of the Meccans. But it is unclear from the Muslim sources and commentators whether these angels or the Muslims struck above the necks and cut off the fingers. Historically and in reality, this was done by the Muslims. But even if we assume, contrary to fact, that angels either slaughtered or helped the Muslims to slaughter sinners and polytheists, Sura 8:12, as we will see, diametrically opposes Luke 22:36. History demonstrates that Jesus never waged jihad on sinners or unbelievers—he did not even swing a sword—and he died for the polytheists whom Allah’s holy soldiers killed.'

'Before leaving this section, if the readers would like to see the Quranic verse in multiple translations, they should go here and type in the reference, like so: 8:12. Typing in the larger context (8:1-14) is interesting as well. Readers should keep in mind the historical context of the Sura, and the verses will then make sense.'

 'the three symbolic interpretations fit together in both the historical and literary contexts of Luke 22:36. Jesus says that two swords are enough, but clearly they are not sufficient for a physical fight in the Garden of Gethsemane or anywhere else. They are enough, however, to do three symbolic things. First, they embody the tension of Jesus’ last days in Jerusalem. Second, they complement Jesus’ fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy that he would be numbered among criminals. A mere two swords would nicely fill out the picture of this prophecy, since criminals carried weapons with them. Third, they are enough for Jesus to rebuke Peter when he swings one of them and cuts off Malchus’ ear. Therefore, Jesus uses them as object lessons that the disciples should follow his example and not use swords—they must never swing them to bring about the kingdom of God by a holy war, even in the direst moment of Jesus’ life, his arrest in the Garden.'

'Peter interpreted Jesus’ words literally, but he was wrong, so Jesus rebuked him. Therefore, we should avoid the same mistaken literal interpretation of "sword" in Luke 22:36, so that we may not receive the same rebuke.'

'This symbolic use of swords in the Gospel of Luke stands in complete opposition to Muhammad’s real-life use of swords in Sura 8:12 and in many other verses in the Quran.'
 

***************************************************************

From Erci, April 01, 2007
Subject: RE: The sword of Jesus and the sword of Muhammad


Jesus was the profet befor Mohammed (sav), iF Jesus was the Last Profet

 he would do exactly what mohammed did because the words in the Qor'aan

are the words of God not of His messenger.
Gerealdine you sTiLL dont geT iT, The words in The Koran are noT From Mohammed

(sav) they are from God HimseLF.
What mohammed said are the hadith with are more then 500.000.

And i told i dont discusse about religions, pls dont send me any mail like this.
This is the last time i have answerd you about such mails.
So if you believe in love come with love and not with hate.
Show me what you are for not what you are against.

Do i have to teach you what love is ??
I think you dont know nothing about it.
iT Seems the only thing you know is hate and rancune.

So pls dont send me mails of something your not intresting it.
Dont be a stalker miss (so called ) love.

GreaTs


From  Erci April 01, 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: You Didnt Find The Love!!



Dear GeraLdine,

I have been thinking and iT Seems you didnt found the love what you are looking for, wright?
To me iT seems that you are so lost, because a person who has found the love doesnt go

 afther what she hates, but he or she let the love shine during day and night.
Thats whats missing with you, the light of love!!

So afther all you are using me to help you in the search!!

Why cant you be honest and ask it to me whiler you go around and around and

stalking me al the time with subjects you dont even care about.

So Geraldine Stop the crap ok !!

You believe in love show it to me.
But with all you have showen to me, it seems you believe in hate.

Good luck with your search..

GreaTs

 

From Geraldine
3 April 2007
I just say the Koran is not pure as love.
 
I just say love is more important than who you call God and the ladst prophet.

C'est tout!.


Your philosophical friend
Geraldine


April 04, 2007
Subject: You Didnt Find The Love!!


Dear Geraldine,
 
Lovers DonT Need Discussens, Lovers are one with The Love.
 
What you try to teach me is not love but its hate.
Thes duscussens are useless it told you many times
 
Im just saying, dont tell me what love is, show it to me.
 
GreaT

 

4/04/2007

Dear Erci,
 
 If belief was light, there would not be a belief against another.
 

To serve a person because you believe he is God
whatever he tells you, even to murder an innocent creature

 is being subservient, not being humble, not being clear minded.
 
To serve a person because you believe he is God

because you are afraid of him, because he can throw you in hell,

is to be the slave of a tyrant.
 
If belief in a personality means justifying his crimes
this is personality cult.
this is not love, this is illusion.
This is not being clear minded.
 
Personality cult is not love.
 For example: -"All that is written by (...) is the word of God."
 
Love does not look at a name.
It looks at the actual deeds.
It looks at the reasoning.
and If we believe it is God, the reasoning must be  good and iit must accord with the deeds.
 
It is a religion that teaches to stone and not to be friends of people of other beliefs what is a call to hate.
to be against a religion that teaches to stone people is to be against the calling to hate.
 
Your friend in the love of truth.
GeraldineFrom Erci April 06, 2007

Dear GeraLdine,

Lovers Dont Need Advice.





Answer from Geraldine , 6 Apr 2007 23:15:33 +0200


You need advice all the time from Mohammed.
You may not think for yourself.
You may not argue with Mohammed.
Though even you know that he could be fallible.

Love for you means a man may argue not a woman.


just when you kill me you will have the last word and be the last prophet.
That will not mean your reasoning is more right than mine.


April 06, 2007


Lovers dont need Advise.

Only Haters need Advice and it seems you need advise.

 So you tell me are you a lover or a HaTer ?

GreaTs.

 

 

Answer from Geraldine  April  08, 2007

 

 Dear Erci, I am sorry to say this but in our E mail dialogue

(which I have published on the web) you are making a fool of yourself.

I understand you want to keep anonym.

 

Any reasonable person who reads our dialogue can tell you this,

That what I say is clear, but you cannot reason or simply deny to reason.

 

If your Prophet teaches Muslims not to reason,

not to argue with him but to kill and torture unbelievers,

he makes of them blind violent men.

 I am not hating anyone. Not even the fanatics like you.

 

But I can hate a false doctrine that teaches mercilessness

in the name of the most merciful.

 I am against killing and torturing  for imposing a belief that teaches hate against unbelievers.

 

 Myriam knows me for almost 17  years. She finds me very loving

I do not hate any person. And it is illusion  what causes 

 all the evil and untruth I can hate which destroy the real understanding between people 

 

 As you know I am using her e mail box.

She is fed up of your senseless endless arguing with me when

I am so patient with you and so clear for so long.

Any reasonable people can understand what I say to you all these years.

Only you pretend not to understand.

 

Myriam will block your e mail in her computer because

she is tired of the subject. It is her right. Now I am mostly working in Nature in Latem.

We both have more interesting things at the moment than to be busy with this

endless dishonest self -defence of your fanatical mind.

 

If you do not want to answer honestly my questions

( for example writing me what is your choice between the

two letters of Cyrus and Khomeini I sent to the king Albert,)

 you are avoiding to go deep into issue.

 

You are avoiding to be reasonable and to be honest,

 or you are just very stupid.

Why? Maybe you are just afraid.

 

I am not interested in dishonest or stupid conversations.

I said it all very clear. A thousand and one times.  All has a limit.

 If you have still an answer on that question

(what is your choice between Cyrus and Khomeini)

you may write it to the e mail vanchapmang@yahoo.com.

When I am abroad I sometimes use it.

 

It is important Do not start asking me questions before you answer me that question.

Either you have a serious conversation or you stop with the 'crap'.

 

 Philosophy is for me love for the truth.

 

 Your friend in love for the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

True angels destroy not men,

but the falseness in them.

 

 

 

PROJECT Philosophic Community

 www.naturestudio.net







PROJECT Philosophic Community
www.naturestudio.net


 

 

 

Dear King Albert, I recommend this beautiful text about the

‘Persian’ King Cyrus of 2500 years ago, as an example of

what justice and wisdom can be in a part of the world

now so much influenced by religious fascism (Iran).

 

Iran 2500 years ago and today

 quote from  www.faithfreedom.org :

The first Charter of Human Rights written 2500 years ago

 

‘’I am Kourosh (Cyrus), great king,…Now that I put the crown of the kingdom of Iran,

 Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of Ahura,

I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations

of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on

 or insult them while I am alive. …I will impose my monarchy on no nation.

 Each is free to accept it, and if any one of them rejects it, I never resolve on war to reign.

While I am the king…I will never let anyone oppress others,… I will never let anyone

take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without

compensation. While I am alive, I will prevent unpaid, forced labour. Today,

I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion.…

No one could be penalised for his or her relatives' faults…Cyrus the Great".

(Source: www.faithfreedom.org)


AND in our  time, (1981) . . . Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of

the birth of Muhammad . . .
The real Day of God is the day that Amir al mo’menin drew his sword and

slaughtered all the khavarej and killed them from the first to the last.
The Days of God are when Allah, the gracious, the almighty, causes an earthquake

.It is when He slaps on the face.It is when he causes a hurricane.He whips this people

 to become humans. If the Amir al mo’menin wanted to be tolerant, he would not have

drawn his sword killing 700 people in one go.
In our prisons we have more of the same kind of people who are corrupt.

If we do not kill them, each one of them that gets out, will become a murderer! They don’t become humans.
Why do you Mullahs only go after the ordinances of prayer and fasting?
Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing?
Quran says; kill, imprison! Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy?
Mercy is against God.

Mehrab means the place of war, the place of fighting. Out of the mehrabs,

wars should proceed, Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs.
The prophet has [had] sword to kill people..
Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men. All of them were warriors.
They used to wield swords; they used to kill people.
We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people
In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats,

 and stone people.In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza

 because they were a bunch of discontent people.
If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice.
The lives of people must be secured through punishment.
Because, the protection of the masses lies beneath these very punitive executions.
With just a few years of imprisonment things don’t get fixed.
You must put aside these childish sentimentalism.
We believe that the accused essentially does not have to be tried. He or she must just be killed. Only their identity is to be established and then they should be killed."

(Source: www.faithfreedom.org) Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of the birth of Muhammad . . .

 Philosophic Community Project

 (van Chapman - www.naturestudio.net)

 

 

Love is timeless.- In timelessness all humans are equal.

Only in time we may differ.

 

All people are essentially equal, as in fact all conscious life is equal,

since any consciousness in a creature is just consciousness.

Only the objects of consciousness

can infinitely differ from each other.

 

In the same way, thought is just thought,

no matter how many things it is thinking..

Only the objects of thought can differ, infinitely, from each other.

 

All human consciousness consists of the same elements:

an element of awareness, of love, and an element of thought, of ego.

 

Love is a form of consciousness, as consciousness is a form of love,

but though thought forms may arise from love,

thought forms themselves are  not necessarily

forms of consciousness, nor  forms of love,

for they may cause illusion and separation and darkness

rather than awareness, union and light.

 

Human consciousness consists of the same elements

in one degree or another: consciousness and thought,

(love and ego). It is only the proportion of these in people.

in time, which may differ.

 

In a given moment, one might manifest more or less clear awareness.

more or less  prejudice, false or unclear thought.

 

The personality or ego is a thought form.

Even our physical form is a materialization of our personality,

of our thought forms.

What we call egoism is not consciousness but a reaction

of a thought form, like the reflection of an unclear mirror.

 

Though we can differ infinitely from each other in thoughts,

in ideas about what is and in beliefs,

in awareness we are one.

Beliefs are many, love is one.

 

Because thought forms may differ infinitely,

so long as we see our identity as being the form,

the ego, the nationality, the religion,

we will be in conflict with other beings, other life forms,

with people of other nationalities, other religions.

 

The universe is the subject and the object in itself.

 

When the object of consciousness is consciousness itself,

it reaches peace within itself and in relation to the

other consciousness in the universe,

which are all part of its higher self.

 

van Chapman   www.naturestudio.net

 

 

 

I am not hating anyone. Not even the fanatics like you.

 

But I can hate a false doctrine that teaches mercilessness

in the name of the most merciful.

 

Dear Erci,
 I send you the link to my last front page INDEX on the web
(with an answer to your ' In love one does not argue'.)

 

If you do not want to discuss anymore it is ok.I thank you for trying so long.
Anyway we are just repeating and repeating the same points of view and they do not match.
You are still living in the past , when power and force and fear was more valuable than reason, the law men, of the physically stronger, the way animals still reason now. I am sorry for it but I hope you will wake up to the justice I speak of.

If a woman can reason better than a man she is not inferior to him as Mohammed thought or wished it to be.

Geraldine

 

 
 

There would not be tyrants if there were no slaves.

It is up to us to stop the way of love for power and to promote the way of a fair relationship.

 
When a man says that  in love one may not argue, 
this probably means that a woman may not argue with the will of the man,
the disciple may not argue with the will of his master,
the employee with the will of his employer.
 
A philosophic community means that In love we may even disagree
and may argue in reason and peace, in a civilized way.
 
Collaboration in any relationship means that If our wills and inspiration accord, and are good,
we walk together, if not, we may walk our own way in peace, and allow the other walk his way in peace.
 
If someone is angry that the other does not obey his will,
this person wants power over the other, and this is not a love relationship.
 
If someone does so, he will harm other people and we have the right to try to show this to him
by not being his slave in the first place.
 
There would not be tyrants if there were no slaves.
 
A (love) relationship means not to impose our will on the other,
but to let the other free to follow his inspiration, while we are free to follow our own inspiration,
in peace, so long as it does not harm anyone.
 
If we are really honest, no one is perfect.
 Not even those who make believe and who we like to believe they are.
 
The time has passed when the woman had to follow the will of the man as a slave.
The time has passed when a doctrine or a book was more important and more holy than true love.
The time has passed when it was believed that a man knows and judges better than a woman
and is unable to accept when her judgement in certain situations is indeed better..
 

 

*************************************************************************************

 

 PROJECT Philosophic Community

 

So much money goes to warfare, to the destruction of human peaceful relations and to the destruction of nature.

 

The problem of the most brutal war of Bush is acute, of less than one decennia, and in his own name: his war on terror.

But the problem of the Islam, is chronic. It exists already some 1400 years and could be going on forever,  the only religion today which justifies lying, deceit ( Al-Takiyya ) and brutal violence and war( the Jihad), in name of God, as means for its domination over the whole Earth.

 

Once I wrote to Bush that the solution for terrorism is a matter of consciousness, and not of violence, and that the best war on terror is to make a good question, to open the minds which have been brain-washed by a terrorist belief.

 

There is no therapy or dialogue for who defends deceit in love,

because those who do this are deceiving themselves.

 

The only therapy is to be sincere in the light of Love.

 

 

Who can solve this conflict of the beliefs in God if not even God can,

 because He or the blind belief in God created it?

Only the awareness of love can solve this conflict.

 

 

 

 

 15 May 07

When I came from Latem yesterday, I met the Turkish Erci in the tram.

We had a friendly meeting. I even gave him a kiss;

I explained what I meant about Naturestudio:

Naturestudio only means that the atelier is nature itself,

not in a particular country or place.

-Universal, he said , smiling…”-we have so much more in common than not,

so why do we not concentrate on that?”

He asked.

I told him there is only one thing for me:  It is not true because “it is written.”

I loved him, not a doctrine or a book. I had made my point very clearly.

I disagree with a book that teaches mercilessness in name of the most merciful.

Muslims can be nice inspite of the Koran, I told him.

And I said he was cleverer than Mohammed.

 

.And because it was raining he walked with me under his an umbrella

and said since I am an unbeliever he should kill me

 but only in a war if I attacked him.

I said would not attack him.

He answered he also would not kill me.

That he is not responsible for what Muslims around the world do.

He also believed as I do that people should forgive rather than revenge.

 

 

And I told of the most beautiful tomb I saw in the cemetery of Deurle:

 a white marble and also sculpted in stone,
 a  fallen cloth like dress ,with an inscription from Saint Exupéry
 :C'est le temps que tu as perdu pour ta rose qui fait ta rose si importante.
 

 

He loved it. And Before parting he repeated in the distance:

“- It was the time you lost with your rose what made the rose important…”Answer from From Erci
May 22, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: E-mail met bijlage (attachment): petitprince.html

Some Thoughts on Sufism note below


Answer from Geraldine
Dear Erci,
With this you seem to have started on a better track.
I agree with the idea that a woman is not inferior spiritually to men, and can be even his superior.
I agree with Hazrat Inayat KhanBut
I disagree that any person is a perfect representative of God.

Female Sufis.

Although most famous, Rabi’a al-Adawiyya - (born 95/714 or 99/717-8 - died 185/801) was not the first, but a culminating representative of female Sufism. She was not a highly-strung and emotional recluse, but a rational, disciplined teacher who demonstrated her mastery of important mystical states, such as truthfulness (sidq), self-criticism (muhasaba), spiritual intoxication (sukr), love for God (mahabba), and gnosis (ma’rifa).

Rabi’a has often been called the founder of Sufi love-mysticism, but this was actually not a particularly important aspect of her teaching. She had a reputation as a specialist in jurisprudence. Her pupil Maryam of Basra was noted for her lectures on love, going into ecstasies on hearing someone speak of love, and finally dying in a swoon during a discourse on love.

By the beginning of the C10, Sufi women could be found throughout the Muslim world from Egypt to Khurasan, but most had become disciples of Sufi men as opposed to having women teachers. Sufi women mixed freely with men, travelled long distances in order to study, and occupied positions of authority and respect. But they no longer seem to have been spiritual masters themselves.

Some accepted the ‘spiritual marriage’, also part of Christian practice, in which a couple lived together but the sexual relationship was set aside. It was also permitted for unrelated men and women to live together as ‘brother and sister’ in a spiritual union, caring for each other with no sexual intimacy. The woman was usually expected to act as the servant of Allah by serving and attending to her male companion. Rabi’a bint Isma’il had this relationship with her husband Ahmad b. Abi al-Hawari. She encouraged him to take other wives if he needed sexual satisfaction. In the view of some, this made such a woman superior to the husband, who still had the need for sex.

Hazrat Inayat Khan
Hazrat Inayat Khan was a Indian Sufi mystic who came to the western world in 1910 and lectured and taught there until his death in 1927. He proposed ten principal Sufi thoughts, which comprise all the important subjects with which the inner life of Man is concerned.

1. There is One God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none exists save He.
(or she, because love does not discriminate people for being a man or a woman. Note by van Chapman)

2. There is One Master, the Guiding Spirit of all Souls, Who constantly leads His followers into the Light.

3. There is One Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of Nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the world.

4. There is One True Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfils the life’s purpose of every soul.

5. There is One Law, the law of reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience, together with a sense of awakened justice.

6. There is One Brotherhood, the human brotherhood which unites the children of earth indiscriminately in the Fatherhood of God.

7. There is One Moral, the love which springs forth from self-denial and blooms in deeds of beneficence.

8. There is One Object of praise, the beauty which uplifts the heart of its worshippers through all aspects from the seen to the unseen.

9. There is One Truth, the true knowledge of our being, within and without, which is the essence of all wisdom.

10. There is One Path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality, in which resides all perfection.


 

Last Update 1 /10/2007

As usual, we are very friendly with each other, and after a while he starts about religion:

 Did you know that there is pornography in the Bible?


-In the Koran also, I answered.

Is not telling someone to crucify prisoners (worse than) pornography?

I do not believe in books. I believe in love.
He surprised me, tapping on my shoulder: -you are a good person...

The tram arrived. It was raining. He took the umbrella for us.
-Allah for me does not exist; I said. while we walked.
What exists, what matters for me is beauty...
And I walked away through the grass.-But there is a path...he objected...
- I make my own paths. I said, and walked away.

He came after me with other questions.

He was busy with statistics in America, too many women.


Men are killing each other I said.But after a war,

there are always more men than women being born,
perhaps re -ncarnating; the balance is restored, we have to have faith.
Then he said there were too many alcohol addicts.
I wrote him an e mail:

There is a kind of drunkenness that is worse
than that caused by alcohol: drunkenness of power.
You don't have to look far in America for examples.
Be critical, seek close to you, even in the Islamic books
and lands for examples of it...


Your philosopher, van Chapman In case you are interest, send you the reaction of Erci to the latest and my answer back.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:G

19 Nov





22/11/07
Today Erci knocked at to the door of the atelier.
-I have good news for you. He said with a smile.

He cited a number of a verse from the Koran challenging that there are no contradictions in the Koran.
-If you can prove that there are contradictions in it, you can undermine the whole of his religion. He said.
He wanted to know if I could prove it.

I answered to him:- All religions have contradictions.
The Koran is not contradictory from a point of view of unquestionable authority:

that you may not question it and so on,

but from a point of view of philosophy and love it is just one contradiction.

And I told him to go back and read what I wrote to him on the web in more than 3 years dialogue with him.
He thanked me and bowed courteously and went.





Peace be with you and between us
Something makes no sense in the “sacred” patriarchal monotheistic doctrines:
If God does not take it and divorces from the evil , sends away from heaven an arrogant tyrant,

then it makes no sense to say that the “sacred” duty of the wife, the woman of the arrogant man,

is to take it, to obey his will, and take him into her and not divorce him…this is only a proof that

these chauvinistic doctrines were created by men for the sake of having power and not out of love for justice.

 Indeed the truth will make us free, even from beliefs.
van Chapman



 

-
From: Rg _
 23, 2007

Peace be with you,

Maybe in Christianity and Judaism you cant divorce.
In Islam you can.
So I think this message is to the wrong person.

We SeLamun ALeykum We RahmeTuLLahi.

Like i said if you can prove any contradictions or falsness in the Qor'aan,

then you can prove to me its not the book of God.

30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together

 (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing.

Will they not then believe? (the Big ben theory) if you say that this is incorrect then you can prove

 to me that the Qor'aan is not Gods Word..

33. O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth,

pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!
If you can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then ill believe that the

Qor'aan is not Gods Word.

100. Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance

of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear Allah, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper."
If you can prove to me that Good things are equal as bad things then youll prove to me That the

Qor'aan is not Gods word.

2. Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly

established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)!

 Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs,

explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

 

If you can prove to me that the sun and the moon doesnt runs regulated then you ll prove

that the Qor'aan isnt the word of God.


And remmeber thes words came 15 centry ago, when there wasnt a telescope or micorscope.
How could mohammed (sav) knew this, if it wasnt a revelation?

So prove me that im wrong pls.

GreaTs Rg.

From  Nov 24, 2007
Dear Erci,
Thanks for the 'peace be with you'.
The same to you.


Women are stoned in the Islam. do not play deaf.
If a man has the right even to beat his wife,
which is so in the Islam, it is the same principle.
A man has no right to boss over a woman,
from the point of view of love.
Will go back to your question soon.
Be well
your friend in love of the truth.


 

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Reaction

 

SeLamun ALeykum,

Witch woman are stoned?
You mean every woman in the Islam geT Stoned?
You know,i know so many muslim girls and women and non of them are stoned.
About wich woman are you TaLking about?
 
Do you know a woman who get stoned?
 
 
Answer from G.  to Erci

27/11/2007

Subject: Video of Stoning to Death - Islam in action

click here for more evidence

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
Video of Stoning to Death

quote:
"Merciful" or "have mercy"?
Click here to watch the Stoning-to-death video
If you are a Muslim, you MUST read this section and watch the video to increase your knowledge of Islam. Increasing one's knowledge about Islam is farz (compulsory)!
Also, you must force yourself to like stoning, because Mohammed ordered it. If you are afraid to watch the video or have watched it and are disgusted by it, you will likely be punished in Hell for Kufr. So watch the video and do NOT be disgusted!

"Introduction
Stoning to death is a cruel insane Islamic punishment given to people who are married but still voluntarily have sex outside marraige. This punishment was ordered by the "merciful" Prophet, who ofcourse was the messenger of the "merciful" Allah.
Many hadith, including Sahih Bukhari give proof that Stoning was ordered and practiced by Muhammed, for example:
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :
The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Click here for more hadith which verify that Mohammed ordered stoning

What happens in Stoning?
In stoning to death, the victims's hands are tied behind their backs and their bodies are put in a cloth sack. Then, this human "package" is buried in a hole, with only the victims heads showing above the ground. If its a woman, she is buried upto her shoulders. This is to give her an seemingly equal (but nonetheless impossible) chance to escape recognizing her lesser physical strength.
After the hapless individual has been secured in the hole, people start chanting "Allah hu Akbar" (meaning, God is great), and throw palm sized stones at the head of the victim from a certain distance (a circle is drawn).
The stones are thrown until the person dies or until he/she escapes out of the hole and crosses the circle. Escaping is impossible, given that the individual's hands are tied behind their backs and they are buried in a hole upto their necks or shoulders (in the case of males and females respectively).
Naturally, the procedure is extremely barbaric and bloody.

Warning! This is an extremely sick and disgusting punishment, and thus watching this video can make you weak or possibly give you nausea and shock for several days. Please do not watch if you are weak-hearted.
Watch at your own risk!


Mohammed ordered stoning to death.
Video of Stoning to Death
Choose your connection:
DSL or Cable (100kbps) | Dial-up Modem (longer version; 10 minutes)
Shorter version (4 minutes)
Video Running time: 10:23(m:s)
Download size: 9.4MB (high speed)
Plain original un-cut version of this Video without additional visual effects

Windows Media Player is needed to play the files;
We apologies for the poor video quality, this is a somewhat old video from 1994 recorded in Iran
 

Stoning to death is still carried out in the current era, in Iran and was carried out in the previous Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.
Related: Also see The Stoning (movie)

Currently, there is a stoning-to-death sentence on Zhila and Bakhtiyar Izadi from Iran.

There is a Campaign going on to save themon this website: http://www.zhilaa.com/
Note: The stoning videos on this page were copied by permission from the website of Iran-e-Azad,

an organization which fights for Freedom and Human Rights in Iran. Their website link is here.
We want everone to watch this video and know the truth about this "peaceful" religion of Islam

which is a danger to humanity and human rights. If you have a website or a blog, you are most

welcome to link to the video: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/video/stoning_video_

100kbps.wmv
Are people in this video extremists? No, they are true Muslims, following the exact orders

of their leader Mohammed. This is real Islam in practice. If you are a Muslim and believe

stoning is not a part of Islam: Congratulations! You have already partially apostated from Islam.

Now you just need to complete your apostasy like we did, and stop believing that Mohammed

was a prophet of God.
Being a humanist is a great alternative to being a Muslim:

Be liberated from the slavery of the imaginary Allah and the false Prophet Mohammed

and leave Islam today." end quote.


A God who could send someone to eternal hell

instead of opening his heart and teaching him, is an irrational impotent God.
 

dear Erci,  Muslims like to say: 'peace be unto the prophet Mohammed'.

You just witnessed what was his 'peaceful' way.

I say love is Greater than Allah

 Peace be with you and between us.


 
Geraldine writes still:

Something makes no sense in the “sacred” patriarchal monotheistic doctrines:
 If God does not take it and divorces from the evil , sends away from heaven an arrogant tyrant, then it makes no sense to say that the “sacred” duty of the wife, the woman of the arrogant man, is to take it, to obey his will, and take him into her and not divorce him…this is only a proof that these chauvinistic doctrines were created by men for the sake of having power and not out of love for justice.  
 Indeed the truth will make us free, even from beliefs.

PROJECT Philosophic Community
van Chapman
 

Subject: Fw: Rare love - szeldzaam liefde.
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:05:44 +0100
(Ducklin and puppy  friends

Film from China)
A smile to you

 

5/12/2007


Erci
This is Sooooooooo BeauTiful, ALL GLorie To God.

GreaTs Rg.


5/12/2007

G.
Yes my friend. Erci,

 the beauty is from love.
 If the film was about a dog eating a living duck,
or about slaying a sheep as part of a Muslim cult,
or stoning living people as part of a barbaric sharia,
it would not be beautiful at all.
 
The vegetarians non believers in your religion
like the non violent Buddhists are closest to this beauty.
 
All glory to love.

All glory to God only if we understand that God is Love.

 

All glory to God only if we understand that God is Love.

 

 

When a prophet, Moses or Mohamed orders someone to be stoned alive for loving someone above his rules, I do not trust one hair on his head.
There is no choice for a Muslim, no freedom to chose for his consciousness of the one who is most just, because he must believe or he is threatened to be killed. So is the Islam. So was the religion of Moses.
I told before in our dialogue you about the barbaric practices in the old testament which Jesus, in the new testament has changed to more compassionate and more humane ones, while your prophet kept himself to the barbaric laws of an eye (or many eyes) for an eye...Unbelievers could be tortured alive or massacrated. I n that, they both were worse than the Beast they called the Devil.
So, Jesus was infinitely superior to Mohamed, though I see also in the teachings of Jesus serious contradictions.
Jesus did not condemn the woman who he saved from being stoned for adultery .
But an incoherence of Jesus was ever to have praised the belief of Moses
and the prophets of an eye for an eye, with whom he disagreed, through the light of love.
And to say one may not swear, but if one marries one does not sin.
One must promise never to leave the partner for another in a Christian Marriage.
Marriage is an institution. Love has not to do with it.
One couple can be married and not love each other, one couple might be not married but love each other.
What matters is love. Love is God, said the same Biblical Jesus.
So what he said that if one marries one does not sin is Jewish law
 from the old testament which made no more sense if Love is God.
 
No Believer dares to be sincere and see this contradiction for fear of God and hell if he is a Christian,
or fear of hell and actually being being murdered as an infidel by the followers of Moses or Mohammed.
 
 
If the prophets and their religions and their God are not reasonable,
and when even my closest love and friends rather leave me to being humble and sincere,
 who can I still call my true friend, my sincere love or lover?
Still I trust the spirit of love, the only one I call Holy Spirit.
van Chapman

 
 

 

PROJECT Philosophic Community


 

 

 An attempt to find an intelligent and peaceful solution

to world conflicts 

 

Love or Belief?

 

Terrorists are not afraid of bombs, they are afraid of questions.

Spiritually powerful people are not afraid of bombs neither,

they are afraid to harm or do injustice to anyone, what terrorists are not afraid of.

Your friend

 www.naturestudio.net

 



If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity,

one is wrong, It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam, as well as Judaism and Christianity or any religion,  regime, or in fact, any relationship. The power of love is the power of clarity and progress. The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 
 

Recent messages from van Chapman to Erci, a fanatic Muslim

Mohammed, Prophet or Terrorist ?

Video of Muslims Stoning People to Death

Erci, I am not sick, but this belief of your is sickening.

 'If the history of Mohammed is true or not, one cannot know,

 but it is violence what transforms an organised religion into an organized crime.'

van Chapman

 

 

Sent by Erci

 Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:50 PM

 

SeLamun ALeykum,  Which woman are stoned?You mean every woman in the Islam geT Stoned? You know, I know so many Muslim girls and women and non of them are stoned. About which woman are you talking about?
 Do you know a woman who get stoned? Asked Erci.


 

Answer from van Chapman:

Video of Muslims Stoning People to Death

 

Saturday, January 05, 2008

 

Here is your answer for always,

 dear Erci,

About the contradiction,

  the incoherence with love in the Islam.

  

I have gone into all this before . Read our debate on the web.

I believe in love.

Not in something because it is written in a book or Jesus said or Allah.

I told you this before.

Mohamed loved a rule, his rule, more than he loved people...

Mohamed defended his rules, not love.

Marriage can be just an institution.

If you believe in sin, Marriage can also be a sin, just look at your prophet:

He himself  married a 9 year old. That is Paedophilia. But it was officially OK.! If you believe in adultery, he had more than 5 wives: that is officialised adultery; (officialised only for men, women would be stoned for it by your barbaric prophet.)

 

 Love does not depend on the institution of marriage.

One can love and not be married, or vice versa.

 

Mohammed could have stoned a person for loving truly someone above his rules. True love is the only rule for a spiritually aware person, not for a barbaric fanatical stupid criminal like these who commit this act.

 

Look at the proof of the love of Mohamed

for people in the video I sent and praise his "compassion"...

_*********************************************

Quote:"Are people in this video extremists? No, they are true Muslims, following the exact orders of their leader Mohammed. This is real Islam in practice. If you are a Muslim and believe stoning is not a part of Islam: Congratulations! You have already partially apostated from Islam. Now you just need to complete your apostasy, and stop believing that Mohammed was a prophet of God. "
 

 

Dear Erci, click here to access the page live with the filmon what your  prophet ordered and tell me if you still say "Peace unto him!".

 

"A man is the protector of women",

pretends the doctrine, but if this is what

your prophet orders, he is the false prophet,

unquestionably worse than the devil.--

 

Warning! This is an extremely sick and disgusting punishment, and just
watching this video can make you weak or possibly give you nausea and shock
for several days. Please do not watch if you are weak-hearted.  

Watch at your own risk

Click here below

http://bibleprobe.com/stoningtodeath.htm

 

 

Subject: Video of Stoning to Death - Islam in action

click here for more evidence

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm 
Video of Stoning to Death

 

 

 

  Dear Muslim, if your prophet ordered this, my friend,  he is the false prophet:

 

This is what Jesus said regarding Stoning to death....

According to the Gospel of John, the Jewish Priests (Pharisees), in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. The Pharisees reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Law of Moses and challenged Jesus to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”

 

quote:  Muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic.  Even if you do not understand a single word.  Muslims are also required to read the Qur'an in Arabic, in order to attain any graces at all from Allah.  It is not necessary that the person can understand even a word of what he is reading.  This is what the warning means that Jesus left us with, when he said; "insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."   Most Muslims do repetitive prayers in a language (Arabic) which they do not understand.  The mandatory recital - The Shahadah: Ash hadu ala ilah ha ilahlah wa ash hadu anna Muhammadah Rasullulah.  Translated, it says; "I testify that there is no god but allah and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." You cannot recite only “ I testify that there is no god but Allah “ and not include “Muhammad is the prophet of Allah “ . That is forbidden or ‘haram’. You must recite “ Muhammad is the prophet of Allah “.end quote

 

 

All glory to God only if we understand that God is Love.

 

 

When a prophet, Moses or Mohamed orders someone to be stoned alive for loving someone above his rules, I do not trust one hair on his head.
There is no choice for a Muslim, no freedom to chose for his consciousness of the one who is most just, because he must believe or he is threatened to be killed. So is the Islam. So was the religion of Moses.

I told before in our dialogue you about the barbaric practices in the old testament which Jesus, in the new testament has changed to more compassionate and more humane ones, while your prophet kept himself to the barbaric laws of an eye (or many eyes) for an eye...Unbelievers could be tortured alive or massacrated. I n that, they both were worse than the Beast they called the Devil.
So, Jesus was infinitely superior to Mohamed, though I see also in the teachings of Jesus serious contradictions.
Jesus did not condemn the woman who he saved from being stoned for adultery .
But an incoherence of Jesus was ever to have praised the belief of Moses
and the prophets of an eye for an eye, with whom he disagreed, through the light of love.
And to say one may not swear, but if one marries one does not sin.
One must promise never to leave the partner for another in a Christian Marriage.
Marriage is an institution. Love has not to do with it.
One couple can be married and not love each other, one couple might be not married but love each other.
What matters is love. Love is God, said the same Biblical Jesus.
So what he said that if one marries one does not sin is Jewish law
 from the old testament which made no more sense if Love is God.
 
No Believer dares to be sincere and see this contradiction for fear of God and hell if he is a Christian,
or fear of hell and actually being being murdered as an infidel by the followers of Moses or Mohammed.
 
 
If the prophets and their religions and their God are not reasonable,
and when even my closest love and friends rather leave me to being humble and sincere,
 who can I still call my true friend, my sincere love or lover?
Still I trust the spirit of love, the only one I call Holy Spirit.
van Chapman


 

 

You say your Allah is Great,

but I say true love is Greater!


 

Wishing all the best to you.

 

 

van Chapman

 www.naturestudio.net

 

If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.

 

It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam,

as well as Judaism and Christianity or any religion,  regime, or in fact, any relationship.

 

The power of love is the power of clarity and progress.

The love for power is the power of obscurity and decadence.

 

 

 

True angels destroy not men,

but the falseness in them.

 

 

 

 

PROJECT Philosophic Community

 

van Chapman

www.naturestudio.net

 

 

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