*LOVE OR BELIEF?

An attempt to find an intelligent and peaceful solution
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November 2006
Letter sent to politicians and the press
If any one thinks this text is against the Islam or Judaism or Christianity, one is wrong.
It is the love for power itself what degenerates the Islam, as well as Judaism and Christianity,
any religion or regime, or in that respect, any relationship.
The power of love is the power of clarity, light and progress.
The love for power, the power of darkness, decadence:
The love for power degrades the power of love.
Answer to the ambition of Islam to conquer the world.*
*
*

*
Muslims everywhere ask not to be discriminated,
ask respect for their belief, for what they understand or do not understand the Islam to be.
But the holy book for the Islam, the Koran, teaches to discriminate people according to their belief,
to divide the world in believers or unbelievers. And that has nothing to do with love.
Love is the only unifying power or Re-uniting force,
or if you want: the only true re-ligare, or religion.
In love there is absolutely no discrimination of people for being a believer or an unbeliever.
Unbelievers are not only humans but can be even more human than believers.
What also needs to be understood by believers is that
not to respect what someone believes, does not mean disrespect for the believer.
In the end what matters is the sincerity and the quality of the heart:
someone may have good heart but false beliefs, or otherwise, have good belief but a cruel heart.
Is the Islam Law or Barbarism? What is a greater crime, to steal something or to mutilate people?
For a woman to leave her husband for another , or to stone someone to death?
To punish a fault by committing a greater crime, or even an equal crime,
as we can read in the Koran, is not the justice of love and wisdom.
When Mohammed was yet not in power, he said 'To each one his belief,
'There is no compulsion in religion'. But when Mohammed came to power, he divided people,
discriminated people for their belief
and made his religion compulsory.  (.See Call to the Muslims of the World from a
Group of Freethinkers
and Humanists of Muslim Origins, (Google),
or  http://www.naturestudio.net/ letter of humanists
Wisdom, true civilisation is not to destroy humans, even if they are considered evil, but to destroy the evil in them.
If Allah who was supposed to be omnipotent, to be able to do all things, was not able to create understanding
in his unbelievers but   advocated tyranny, slavery, rape and butchery of people, he was the product of barbaric
and not of a civilized mind.

In teaching to punish a crime with a much greater crime, in the name of the Most Merciful and wise ,
the Islam is a contradiction.

It is hypocrisy of a Muslim to say in the Islam one may never fight war against or kill women.
According to http://Forums.brisinst.org.au  "(Koranic text straight from Allah gives
Muslim men the right to rape captured females (suras, 70.30, 4.24, 23.1-7, 33.50-52)
Mohammad allowed his followers to rape women captured in war. No reasonable person would accept that…)";
According to some Islamic traditions, a woman may be stoned to death for leaving their husband for another man,
while a man may have up to 5 wives and as many as slaves "his right hand possesses"
to use sexually at his will (rape).
Muslims may rage, but Indeed we can ask , what did Mohammed brought of new, spiritually?
While Jesus changed that trend of stoning women for adultery, by teaching forgiveness,
Mohammed's Islam brought the revival of the Old Testament's barbaric "an eye for an eye", or worse...

While Jesus changed that trend of stoning women for adultery, by teaching forgiveness,
Mohammed's Islam brought the revival of the Old Testament's barbaric "an eye for an eye", or worse...

No one is a mere object or a property of another, in the eyes of the justice of love.
(Sometimes a marriage has nothing to do with love, like in the forced marriages.
Then, to keep a false marriage by force is inhuman.
So there is tyranny even in Jesus or Christianity,
if for example, any married person is prohibited to divorce.)

In the Islam a man may not humble himself to his women, even when he is wrong,
……… ***Koran 23: 1- 7 Successful indeed are the believers,
Those who humble themselves in their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds of charity;
And who guard their modesty - Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives)
whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

Tyrants, as the mafia, want no discussion.
One may be punished or mutilated, beheaded or killed for criticising, for disagreeing with them.
Mohammed did just that, and this has nothing to do with love for humanity.
Wikipedia: Asma bint Marwan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
search Asma bint Marwan  is a female poet who lived in Hijaz in medieval Arabia during the life of Muhammad.
  Her affair is first written in Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" or the Biography of the Prophet of God,
  the oldest and primary biography of Muhammad.

Another source that described the death of Asma bint Marwan:
From Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31.
"SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"

Beating on women for disobeying their husbands, violating women of unbelievers in war time, stoning a women for giving herself to another man, killing someone for deserting the belief is not self defence but an unthinkable crime of violation of humanity.

If Muslims have to agree with all what is written in the Koran even if it goes against their consciousness, the Islam is a violation of Humanity!
When they are not just innocently ignorant, Muslims I met try to deny or hide (Al-Takiyya) from unbelievers (and from others who they want to seduce to the Islam,) this tyrannical aspect in the Koran.
If someone thinks people only respect what they fear, and out of love for power create an authority or God who 'will instil terror on the hearts of the unbelievers",who becomes a tyrant and a butcher of people, than he has forgotten that there are free and true and intelligent people in this world, who do not respect tyranny nor fear brutal force,
but have respect for the truth, for love and justice alone.

Philosophic Community Project
(van Chapman - www.naturestudio.net)








You say your Allah is Great,
but I say true love is Greater!

Wishing all the best to you.



PROJECT Philosophic Community



www.naturestudio.net






PROJECT
Philosophic Community
What I try to say to this Muslim,
(even if he denies all evident violence in his holy book,) is this:
One does not clear someone's consciousness,
nor brings order to someone's thoughts
by cutting off his head.




Light and peace to you my friend.
Wishing all the best in life to you,
van Chapman







Dialogue with Erci about

Mohammedaanse trouwpartij.doc

VIDEO TO SEE AT
  http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/07/hamas-sponsors-mass-wedding-for-little.html
Mohammedlike wedding

From: Graldine to Erci:


Here is the information I mentioned to you I got on Internet:
Mohammedaanse  trouwpartij .pps
The real perversion from the prophet of God who told to stone people for their sins.
(Mohammedlike Wedding)

Received this account by e mail about a barbaric tradition still existing in Muslim lands.
An integer spirit or philosophy is to defend the justice and the truth, not to defend oneself or one's philosophy or belief at the cost of justice and truth.
Believers who do this are not integer.
"Peace unto him",  is what some Muslims like to say when they speak of their prophet, but they deny or do not want to admit the negative behaviour and teachings from his life history and work.
According to the history of the prophet Mohammed,  he took a child in marriage: what is a justification for paedophile, a crime in modern human right and international justice.
An integer spirit is not the one who is self-defending at the cost of anyone and anything, at the cost of people's lives. An integer spirit does not justify everything in someone's life and history, not even if that one is  him or herself; a friend or a guru, a "so called"  "the prophet of God", or "God Himself". Peace unto him' , what  Muslims like to say when they speak of their prophet,
Whoever, whatever, preaches you to destroy people because they 'sinned', Like the Koran does, do not teach  true spiritual integrity, philosophy or wisdom , so they cannot help eradicate evil from the world.


Wisdom is to destroy the evil in people, not people themselves.
Those who justify  as "self defence"  the atrocities in any individual or group or nation or  culture against others, specially for   patriotic  or religious fanaticism, are not really concerned with Justice nor truth.
won  when we do evil to the one who has done , evil to us, when we lie to the one who lies to us,  when we torture the one who tortured us. evil, the devil has won, not love.
The meaning of wisdom force and justice is not only to protect people from the evil outside but also from the evil inside them. the evil we could do to others.
The only way to win over evil is to awaken to the consciousness of love, not destroy, kill and send people to hell.
A  Prophet or God who does  this is a false prophet or God. Fanatic Muslims seem not to get  this.

To love our enemy means to save rather than destroy someone, however he has sinned.
As I before I say there is no justice without love, there is no love without justice.
One cannot win over the devil by acting like one, by cutting of someone's hand for stealing or stoning or torturing people alive for having sinned as so called  "holy books" like the old Testament and the Koran have wrongly preached in name of God.

There is no greater sin or injustice than a sin committed in name of God.

And 'Peace unto him" or anyone' , will only be to stop justifying the false and evil In ourselves, in the other, in what the  Holy books and prophets taught ; recognize it, and grow above it.


From van Chapman
Dialogue with Erci , 30 June 2010

Further reading: Something else to ponder about:
Capricious Revelation of the Qur'an  http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv9.html
Contradictions in the Qur'an
http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv11.html
Historical errors are so many in the Qur'an that we cannot cover them all, but we will be content to point out some very obvious examples: http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.htm
the Loss of Many Parts of It.
On page 131 of his book, "El-Sheaa and Correction", the contemporary Muslim scholar, Dr. Mosa-El-Mosawy, makes this frank confession,
"Those who adopt the notion of the perversion of the Qur'an are present among all different Islamic groups, but the majority of them come from the El-Sheaa scholars." 
Perversion of Qur'an is an unimaginable notion to the lay Muslim because the Scholars of Islam are hiding this truth from being published or becoming known. http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv12.html




Here is the information I mentioned to you I got on Internet:
Mohammedaanse  trouwpartij .pps
The real perversion from the prophet of God who told to stone people for their sins.
(Mohammedlike Wedding)

LOVE OR BELIEF?
Mohammedaanse trouwpartij.pps



















Response of a Muslim Erci,  in a e mail dialogue with me.
Today he should come for his portrait.
I will see if he will accept to be filmed while he says to me the 'smoesjes' he likes to say  to try to  convince others of the Islam...

Will he now try to deny evidence of any wrong  from Muslim practices the this paedophilia  account : Mohammedaanse trouwpartij.pp ?
Dear Muslim, is Mohammed a Prophet or a Terrorist?

Watch at your own risk Click here below
Subject: Video of Stoning to Death - Islam in action

http://bibleprobe.com/stoningtodeath.htm
This is what Jesus said regarding Stoning to death....
According to the Gospel of John, the Jewish Priests (Pharisees), in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. The Pharisees reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Law of Moses and challenged Jesus to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her." The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, "No man, lord." Jesus then said, "Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more."





If your prophet ordered this, stoning people alive, my friend, then he is a false prophet.
Go on Internet to the film on what your prophet ordered and tell me if you still honestly say to Mohammed "Peace unto him!",
The threat the teaching on Love of Jesus
represents to Mohamed: 
When Peter, took the sword to defend his master, Matthew 26:52 Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." Jesus teaching in this aspect, would mean Mohamed would pay for every cruelty he did or ordered to do in his bloody Jihad in name of God: kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" Koran(2:191)"
that is, no "peace unto him"
who predicts hate and horrors of violence like this,
no treading the way to Heaven but to Hell.
Mohammed was probably aware of this, what would make him fear the authority of Jesus advising  his believers not  to make friendship with Christians(5:51). 
No, I am not sick, Erci, but this belief of yours is sickening.
Video of Muslims Stoning People to Death
for more evidence Another link
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
End of a long attempt of a dialogue with a fanatic Muslim
11/01/2008    "A man may never kill a woman", pretends your doctrine, "A man is the protector of women", you say naively. But if your prophet orders stoning, this more cruel torture the lowest beast could not inflict upon a living being, then this is a lie.
I have gone into all this before, my friend Erci.
Read our debate on the web.I believe in love, not in something because it is written in a bookor Jesus said or Mohammed.
I told you this before. True love is the only rule for a spiritually aware person,
not for a barbaric fanatical stupid criminal like these who commit this act.
Look at the proof of the love of Mohamed for people in the video I sent and praise his "compassion"...
Mohamed loved a rule, his rule, more than he loved people.
Marriage can be just an institution.
If you believe in sin, marriage can also be a sin,
just look at your prophet: he himself married a 9 year old.
That is Paedophilia. But it was officially OK.!
If you believe in adultery, he had more than 5 wives:
that is officialised adultery; (officialised only for men, for women could be stoned for it by your barbaric prophet).
Love does not depend on the institution of marriage.
One can love and not be married, or vice versa. 
Mohammed could have stoned a person for loving truly someone
above his rules.
Jesus did not condemn the woman who he saved from being stoned for adultery. Jesus was infinitely superior to Mohamed, though I see also in the teachings of Jesus serious contradictions.
I told you before about the barbaric practices in the old testament which Jesus has changed to more compassionate and more humane ones, while your prophet kept himself to the barbaric laws of an eye (or many eyes) for an eye.
An incoherence of Jesus was ever to have praised the belief of Moses
and the prophets of an eye for an eye, with whom
through the light of love.he disagreed,
To say one may not swear, but if one marries one does not sin,
as Jesus taught, is an incoherence, because one must swear
never to leave the partner for another in a Christian Marriage.
So what he said that if one marries one does not sin is Jewish law
from the old testament which made no more sense if Love is God.
What matters is love.
Love is God, said the same Biblical Jesus.
Marriage is an institution. Love has not to do with it.
One couple can be married and not love each other,
one couple might be not married but love each other.
Do you not not dare to be sincere and see this contradiction
for fear of not believing?
What I try to say to this Muslim,
(even if he denies all evident violence in his holy book,) is this:
One does not clear someone's consciousness,
nor brings order to someone's thoughts
by cutting off his head.


"Islam is the only religion which preaches that those who practice religious violence"
will automatically enter heaven..
"Very often apologetics claim that Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion.
Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty".
LOVE OR BELIEF?
Truth can make us free indeed, even of beliefs.

Still I trust the spirit of love,
the only one I call Holy Spirit.




True angels destroy not men, but the falseness in them.


Beliefs are many,
truth, love, is one.


True wisdom destroys not men,
true angels do not kill the evil men ,
  but the falseness and the evil in them.
...
The greatest enemy of man is his own proud arrogance
or pride and love of power,
and it is not through military victory over others
but through self awareness
that victory over ourselves is won.





End of a long attempt of a dialogue with a fanatic Muslim



You say you do not believe in love as I do.

you believe in justice, not love, because you believe in Alah.

I say there is no Justice without love.



Does a good teacher kill a student because a student does not believe or understand?

Does a good teacher punish  a human fault or crime with an even worse crime?

What I have shown you in this dialogue is that not all which is written in the scriptures and Koran is just.

some punishments in the Koran are not a form of just punishment but  a much worse crime.

and Erci finally gave in and : answered: -Maybe...

Now he must be giving it some thought.



Terrorists are not afraid of bombs, they are afraid of questions.

Spiritual voice cannot be silenced by neither questions nor bombs ,
Spiritual people are afraid  to harm or do injustice to anyone, what terrorists are not afraid of.

Wishing all the best to you. 







Abraham's story of him being willing to kill even his own son, out of obedience, set out the example of blind obedience even in a crime, to religious authority or whom we consider to be God.

(He could have stopped and asked himself  if he could trust anyone or any spirit as just and good, who would order him to murder anyone, in particularly, an innocent child.)



  A vegetarian meditation about the Islam




According to a documentary on TV about Mecca, in memory of Abraham, one is asked to kill, or have a sheep killed for them, one sheep per person or seven persons or family in Mecca, as part of a religious ritual duty.

What if you are a vegetarian? There is no real need to kill to eat if you are a vegetarian.
(Maybe in the time of Abraham it was not possible to live as a vegetarian, there was only desert, grass and sheep, like in deserts, in some parts of  Africa and Afghanistan today...) But if  the Islam obliges men to do that, even today, the Islam is a religion whose “Most merciful” God Allah encourages, if not obliges people to be a carnivore.

( Surah 3:85 'If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good.')
If you think that not SPIRITUAL SELF AWARENESS, OR FAITH IN LOVE, but the  ISLAM of Mohammed  is the only acceptable religion for the whole of humanity, then, if ALLAH tells you to kill, even if it makes no sense, as a Muslim you must obey. You are forced to live as a carnivore, even if you can liveas a vegetarian; and this is absurd.
And the picture becomes horrible indeed if anywhere in the Koran it is written that the faithful to Allah must kill the unbeliever, unfaithful to Mohammed’s Allah:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." what is also absurd; and a crime according to Human Rights and the European and Western World Laws. For refusing to murder a sheep for a ritual in Mecca, being as a harmless vegetarian Buddhist or Hindu, for example,
or refusing the crime to kill any human being for a difference of belief, one could be considered an unbeliever, and risk to be murdered by followers of Mohammed as the Taliban.  THIS FAITH IS in contradiction with ‘LOVE YOUR ENEMIES’ of  JESUS;
This faith Quran (2:191-193)would lead indeed to a hell of hate rather than to a heaven of love.

AND HERE IS WHAT I HAVE TO SAY TO ABRAHAM AND HIS FOLLOWERS:

IN FACT A SPIRIT WHO WOULD ASK YOU UNQUESTIONING OBEDIENCE EVEN IN A CRIME
TO KILL AN INNOCENT CHILD AS A PROOF OF OBEDIENCE,   OR FORCE YOU TO KILL A SHEEP WHEN YOU CAN BE A VEGETARIAN, CANNOT BE 'THE MOST MERCIFUL', 'THE MOST WISE' BUT THE SOURCE OF ALL INCONSIDERATION,  SUBSERVIENCE, FANATISM OR PROUD TYRANY.

According to http://www.therefinersfire.org/mecca.htm   ‘Most Muslims never heard about the person of the Holy Spirit’.

The Holy Spirit, to me, is the spirit of love, where one finds oneself, and without which or who, one loses oneself.

For further meditations on this,
see a dialogue  LOVE OR BELIEF


Luke 6:27-36
[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

The best wishes to all of you.   
van Chapman       
Philosophic Community Projects
www.naturestudio.net


[Index English]

[What is relevant for modern art ? Reaction to Canvascollectie]

[Purpose and interactions]
[In het Nederlands]

[Nature photos-van Chapman]
[Nature paintings-van Chapman]
[Portraits in the Cafe]

[Nature photos-Myriam Vandenberghe]
[Nature paintings-Myriam Vandenberghe]

[Isolda Hermes da Fonseca]
[Isolda page 2]


[Love or Belief ?]
[Philosophic Community Project]

[Dialogue with a Muslim Erci]
[Dialogue with a Muslim Erci 2 ]


[Voice of eternal love-musical project]

[Meditating_on_world_events]



     contact 


[Index English]

[ Canvascollectie-What is relevant for the world today in Art?]
[Purpose and interactions]
[In het Nederlands]

[Nature photos-van Chapman]
[Nature paintings-van Chapman]
[Portraits in the Cafe]

[Nature photos-Myriam Vandenberghe]
[Nature paintings-Myriam Vandenberghe]

[Isolda Hermes da Fonseca]
[Isolda page 2]


[Love or Belief ?]
[Philosophic Community Project]

[Dialogue with a Muslim Erci]
[Dialogue with a Muslim Erci 2 ]


[Voice of eternal love-musical project]

[Meditating_on_world_events]



     contact 


WHO IS THROWING PEARLS TO THE SWINES?





LAST EXCHANGES from 2010 FROM A DIALOGUE WITH A MUSLIM IN GENT

Part of a long dialogue (at least since 2003 ) between van Chapman (Geraldine) and a Muslim I will call  Erci.

Here a recent exchange with a Muslim while I am making a painted portrait of him.


March 25, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: not the false peace of the ego in keeping appearances



Erci,
You said last you have not done research to answer our dialogue.
You let me do research alone, again and again.

If at least you were to someone who was willing to understand, (not only to convince others), I had not to repeat myself so many times all these years.so you did not really read with care and you did not really answer with care our dialogue.

I did most of the work. Even the portrait you asked of yourself.

I did what I could but not what you asked me to do:
tot change your eyes in that portrait.
The change in your eyes (as in my portrait of you), has to come from within you.
Stop  hiding your name and your face from our dialogue, stop fearing if I record on video our conversation while I finish that portrait.

-How can a mind full of fear, full of beliefs see clearly?
Would have asked again Krishnamurti.

Once I wrote in a poem that 'angels have no fear, for they are protected by the love in their hearts'.
Only then I will believe in your peace.
Be well.





NOTE: NEVER MIND THE SPELLING MISTAKES






Here is a list of wives of Mohammed by the Muslim scholar Ali Dashti.




Question from DIALOGUE WITH ERCI:
TO HAVE ALL THESE WOMEN IS MAYBE A GOOD REASON FOR SOME MEN TO FIGHT AND KILL FOR ALLAH?






http://www.muslimhope.com/WhyDidMohammedGetSoManyWives.htm


Quote: He probably based much of this on an earlier list in the History of al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-241.
It should be mentioned that scholars and Hadiths are not entirely agreed on the wives of Mohammed.

For example some hadiths (not Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) mention a couple of wives of Mohammed that he divorced,
and these are not shown here. Nonetheless, Ali Dashti's list, while perhaps not entirely agreed upon as being comprehensive, shows many of the wives. Following this is the evidence from the hadiths, independent of Ali Dashti, for these relationships.

1. Khadija/Khadijah bint Khuwailid/Khywaylid - died first
2. Sauda/Sawda bint Zam'a
3. 'Aisha/Aesha/'A'ishah - 8 to 9 yrs old, 2nd wife
   'Aisha's Slaves
   'Aisha and the Battle of the Camel
4. Omm/'Umm Salama/Salamah
5. Hafsa/Hafsah
6. Zaynab/Zainab of Jahsh
7. Juwairiya/Jowayriya bint Harith (captive)

9. Safiya/Safiyya bint Huyai/Huyayy bint Akhtab (captive)
10. Maymuna/Maimuna of Hareth
11. Fatima/Fatema/Fatimah (briefly)
12. Hend/Hind (widow)
13. Asma of Saba (Sana bint Asma')
14. Zaynab of Khozayma
15. Habla?
16. Divorced Asma of Noman / bint al-Nu'man
¾slaves / concubines ¾
17. Mary the Copt/Christian
18. Rayhana/Raihana/Rayhanah bint Zayd/Zaid
¾uncertain relationship -
19. Divorced Omm Sharik
20. Maymuna/Maimuna (slave girl?)
21. Zaynab/Zainab the third?
22. Khawla / Khawlah
23. Divorced Mulaykah bint Dawud
24. Divorced al-Shanba' bint 'Amr
25. Divorced al-'Aliyyah
26. Divorced 'Amrah bint Yazid
27. Divorced an Unnamed Woman
28. Qutaylah bint Qays (died right away)
29. Sana bint Sufyan
30. Sharaf bint Khalifah
31. Women of Mohammed's Right Hand
Mohammed Turned Some Women Down
Some Women Turned Mohammed Down
¾ Ali Dashti missed at least nine possible other wives.
Mohammed married 15 women and consummated his marriages with 13. (al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-127)

http://www.muslimhope.com/WhyDidMohammedGetSoManyWives.htm





Question from DIALOGUE WITH ERCI:
TO HAVE ALL THESE WOMEN IS MAYBE A GOOD REASON FOR SOME MEN TO FIGHT AND KILL FOR ALLAH?





"Islam is the only religion which preaches that those who practice religious violence
will automatically enter heaven".
"Very often apologetics claim that Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion.
Yet, punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty".




End of a long attempt of a dialogue with a fanatic Muslim



You say you do not believe in love as I do.

you believe in justice, not love, because you believe in Alah.

I say there is no Justice without love.



Does a good teacher kill a student because a student does not believe or understand?

Does a good teacher punish  a human fault or crime with an even worse crime?

What I have shown you in this dialogue is that not all which is written in the scriptures and Koran is just.

some punishments in the Koran are not a form of just punishment but  a much worse crime.

and Erci finally gave in and : answered: -Maybe...

Now he must be giving it some thought.



Terrorists are not afraid of bombs, they are afraid of questions.

Spiritual voice cannot be silenced by neither questions nor bombs ,
Spiritual people are afraid  to harm or do injustice to anyone, what terrorists are not afraid of.

Wishing all the best to you. 







Abraham's story of him being willing to kill even his own son, out of obedience, set out the example of blind obedience even in a crime, to religious authority or whom we consider to be God.

(He could have stopped and asked himself  if he could trust anyone or any spirit as just and good, who would order him to murder anyone, in particularly, an innocent child.)






ABOUT UNQUESTIONABILITY


WHAT SPIRITUAL TEACHINGS
and
POWER LOVING TEACHINGS DO NOT HAVE IN COMMON:


Spiritual teachings pre-existed  Abraham tradition and the streams of Monotheism.

From the ancient times of civilization, the wisdom of Lao Tzu ( (604 - 531 BC ), of Buddha (around 563 BC- 483 BC), of Socrates (460-429 BC), previous to  Judaism, Catholicism or the Islam, all  have shown that simple awareness (in particular spiritual self awareness), not subjugating power, brings out the potential understanding and natural order to the mind and relationships.
Questions may be the very way to tap within for spiritual self awareness, all knowledge and self knowledge.

The repression of questioning leads to fanatism and tyranny. The moment you create an unquestionable authority you also create hell.
Is unquestioning, indiscriminate submission, convenient for the world today? Has it ever been?


Abraham's willingness not to question, but to kill even his own son, out obedience to whom he considered God,  is revered in all ramifications of this Monotheistic tradition.
Abraham has set out the example of the way of relationship of blind obedience, even in a crime, to religious authority.
To have faith in an ultimate justice is good, but can there be justice without love, without spiritual discernment??

This lack of discrimination venerated until today as sacred, combined with different interpretations and ramifications belief,  have caused the most absurd and horrific violence, injustice, crime in human history: those committed and justified  in name of God.



Since then, Monotheistic systems of Beliefs  crumble now before those who have eyes to see, when the fruits of pride of power and the blind submission (even in a crime), come to the light:
The never ending bloodbaths we see (here also on Canvas TV)  these times.

Abraham could have stopped and asked himself  if he could trust anyone or any spirit as just and good, who would order him to murder anyone, in particularly, an innocent child. Then history would have perhaps had a much better turn.

But it is never too late.
The future starts now and it starts with you.


Little has humanity learned from its bloody history because horrors have even been justified by these Monotheistic religions and as said before, to project our prejudices on others or on what is, and want no discussion, is the main cause of disruption in any relationship, the source of all darkness, all hopeless conflicts in relationships.


Before true peace and understanding can reign between any of us, there must be a revolution, as said Krishnamurti, which is truly intelligent. As solving of differences peacefully, through meditation, awareness and dialogue, not mentally or physically as brute dinosaurs.

Only through the consciousness of love one can see the beauty of Nature and  the ugliness and stupidity of vanity, of greed, arrogance, also in the animals, which to the immature mind is so 'cool'.


Only love is just and no prophet and guru, savior,  holy book or anyone one has beaten love yet.



NOTE

In a film "The Other Israel" http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkgn49_the-other-israel-ted-pike-full-video_news#rel-page-1   presented by an American Christian preacher, it is shown how Judaism has tried to dominate the World to this day. This priest, in a Christian  unquestioning biased view, typical of the tradition of Abraham, overlooked the fact that the Biblical Jesus was contradicting his own command 'Love your enemies' when he considered Jewish  Pharisees as less than human, and ordered them to be killed.

He shows that though perversions such as child sex abuse were justified by Rabbis in the Jewish Talmud, in the unquestioning biased  view typical of the tradition of Abraham they taught that those who are not Jewish, called Gentiles, (also Christians), were perverse, should be deprived of all property and all rights, treated in court not as equal to Jews but as less than human and that they may kill them though indirectly.

But this American Christian did not show that the Islam itself  in the same unquestioning biased view of the tradition of Abraham, tries to dominate the world, with contradicting commands about religious tolerance, telling Muslims in the Koran to consider non Muslims as less than Muslims not to befriend and even to kill Jews and Christians, at the time of its prophet.


Violence is a stupid argument.
A Philosopher does not consider unbelief a problem.
Not a reason not to be a friend of someone or to kill him.
Philosophers, similar in a way to  saints or holy sages would never convert through the sword but bring about enlightenment and understanding through honesty, clarity, insight and an intelligent dialogue.


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True angels destroy not men,
but the falseness in them.



PROJECT Philosophic Community
You say your Allah is Great,
but I say true love is Greater!





This is an extract from a dialogue on the web with a fanatic Muslim.

10 January 2008/ Question by Erci  11/24/2007
*-SeLamun ALeykum,  Which woman are stoned?
You mean every woman in the Islam geT Stoned?
You know, I know so many Muslim girls and women
and non of them are stoned. About which woman
are you talking about?
Do you know a woman who get stoned? 
  Erci
*
*
Answer by van Chapman:

Here is your answer for always, dear Erci,
about the contradiction, with love in the Islam:
*
Warning! This is an extremely sick and disgusting punishment,
and just watching this video can make you weak or possibly
give you nausea and shock for several days.
Please do not watch if you are weak-hearted.
Watch at your own risk Click here below
*
Subject: Video of Stoning to Death - Islam in action
http://bibleprobe.com/stoningtodeath.htm
*
*